Former Warriors' Director of Performance Keke Lyles Shares His Perspective on Load Management, Changing Stephen Curry's Movement Patterns, And What's Helped Jayson Tatum's Durability

Keke Lyles shares his perspective on load management, which is just as much art as science.

When Keke Lyles started working with the Golden State Warriors, Stephen Curry was a burgeoning star struggling to stay healthy. Lyles noticed the now four-time NBA champion and two-time league MVP needed to load his hips to help unload his ankles instead of relying too much on the latter.

Between changing his movement patterns and strengthening his core, Curry quieted concerns about his durability and built a Hall-of-Fame career, placing himself among the game's all-time greats.

Lyles, the former director of performance for the Warriors, whose NBA stops include working as the director of player performance for the Atlanta Hawks and the strength coach for the Minnesota Timberwolves, now sits as the director of performance at Uplift Labs.

Through AI-powered technology, they provide analytics to improve performance while minimizing injuries in sports, fitness, and everyday life. SportTechie described Uplift Labs as putting a "performance lab in your pocket by turning iPhones into high-grade motion capture, biomechanical tools."

In an interview with Bobby Krivitsky, Lyles shared his perspective on load management, including the missing piece of the puzzle, working within the construct of an 82-game schedule there isn't much of an appetite to reduce and went in-depth on working with Curry, what's helped Jayson Tatum's durability, Robert Williams' reality, and among other topics, what he wants you to know about Uplift Labs.

Here's their discussion, edited for length, clarity, and grammar.

Bobby Krivitsky: From your vantage point, is load management driven more by players or by teams?

Keke Lyles: By teams, for sure.

Bobby Krivitsky: Paul George expressed that he believes load management is hurting more than it's helping because players are going from high-load days to off days, and in his opinion, it's making them weaker. What's your perspective on that?

Keke Lyles: So, I think load management, in general, is complicated, right? Because it's, it's very much individualized, and it's funny, speaking of Paul, I was with Paul in Indiana his rookie year, so I know Paul well, that's funny, but the way I look at load management is there are so many factors that go into it.

There's on-court load, right? The physical load, like how much distance or accelerations, decelerations a player has. The same thing in practice, which all teams, we track all that stuff through the various technologies, and then there's the response to the load, which is, you know, you can look at HRV data and heart rate response and a lot of those internal responses to that load.

But then there are other factors that also can contribute to that response. I can run a mile one day, (and) the next day, run a mile, but my response is different because one night, I slept 10 hours, and the next night, I slept two hours. So, the way my body handles that one mile can be very different from one day to the next based on the previous night or day or previous days, right?

And then, when you factor in NBA players, you factor in travel, with their eating, what they're doing, general stress of life, their current situation, their playing minutes, there are so many variables that go into this, which is really hard.

When we first started tracking load management in the NBA, it was very much like, okay, what did you do on the court? And it was very myopic; like that's it, that's all we look at. And it's like, I think we're missing the point here.

But there are sometimes where that's kind of warranted in the sense when you're returning from an injury, you want to incrementally increase their load, right? You're building up that tolerance, just from a physiological standpoint.

So, all this is to say that it's difficult if there's not a one-size-fits-all, and it's really hard, I think, for teams to stay on topic with all the pieces around each player. And I'm sure some teams do better than others.

Generally speaking, all these guys train really hard, for sure. But where, when, how, the intensity, I think sometimes that gets lost in the busyness of the schedule, or it's like, let's be more thoughtful, more purposeful. Let's prepare guys more during the summer for what they need, which is really hard for teams now, because most of these guys are working with their own people.

Not saying they're not doing the work, they're definitely doing the work. But it's hard to go from, 'hey, what have you done for the last two months?' (to) now, you're back with the teams, and now we got to integrate, right? And that's what I mean, some teams do it really well. Other teams, probably not as well, but it's not as simple. It's not a simple task.

Bobby Krivitsky: Yeah, it's certainly a lot, and as you said, especially once they get out of the building and they're gone for a few months, it becomes even harder to stay on top of everything. And so when they return, tailoring a routine, it's a complex and challenging process.

Generally speaking, do you think players have enough say in coming up with a game plan based on what the data is revealing about how fatigued they are?

Keke Lyles: I can only speak for the places that I was in. I would say yes. I think players definitely have enough say, but I don't know what's being shared with them or how well they understand it.

In Atlanta, for instance, we spent a lot of time trying to educate the players on the data we were collecting so (that) they understood it as well as we understood it. So, then when we were making recommendations, it was like, 'okay, I understand,' or they can ask questions, like, 'do I need this or that?'

And so that's the hard part. It's kind of sad, but it comes down to the relationships teams have with their players. Because if there's not a crazy amount of trust built, I forget what it was, it's like, you gain trust in drops, but you lose it in buckets.

And it's true. If (the) team and player are not totally in sync, then it becomes really hard to manage all that. And so players obviously need to look out for themselves. But I found it always kind of interesting slash funny that a lot of players don't always think the team has their best interest in mind.

I would always argue, trust me, we want the very best version of you. There's nothing else we ever want. And so it is funny, but at the same time, there are stories or situations that you hear, where players are mistreated. It's usually not mistreated, it's usually poor communication or something, but that feeling of (being) mistreated, and that creates this kind of systemic issue.

But overall, I think if players understand the data that the teams are trying to collect and they're a part of that process, which they should be, it should be a together thing.

Obviously, players need to lean into the experts of the team. Teams hire experts in these fields. There are really smart people working in the NBA now. So, players should lean into that expertise and understand, 'hey, there's certain stuff, I don't know,' and maybe they believe in all the data there, or they don't, but at least have the conversation and work together.

Bobby Krivitsky: And just having at least the access and the information, and then how much they trust it and where they go from there, that's up to them. And like you said, that level of communication and goodwill between the team and each player, it's crucial.

Another kind of broad-brush question that I have for you is, reducing the schedule from 82 games and making that financial sacrifice is unrealistic. So, what's necessary in making sure players are consistently available and able to be at their best?

Keke Lyles: Yeah, this goes back to a lot of strategy, I have always had a hard time saying, 'hey, if a guy needs rest, let's rest them in games.

Part of it is, this is what they're paid to do, is to play in games. And sometimes that's warranted, right? Sometimes it is, is like, 'hey, this guy's, we can't, for x amount of reasons, but the advantage now, with the technology that we have, that's becoming more real-time, you know?

I also always found it funny when it's like, 'hey, 20 minutes, we're capping this guy at 20 minutes tonight. There are a million different ways 20 minutes can look.

I always like to work in a range. It might be 20 to 24 minutes. We're trying to avoid maybe, like a six-minute stretch in a row. So, is there a way we can substitute him when we know a timeout's coming; there's strategy around that.

But I think that's the thing. As we get more live data coming in and understanding players, again, we just don't have heart rate data in-game, which would be really helpful. But at the same time, there are a lot of proxies that we can kind of leverage from practice.

And to understand that, to say, 'okay, maybe this is where we cap him now, or he's at a point where let's, you know. And we're trying to mitigate risk. And it's not 100 percent; if we're saying 24 minutes is the high limit, it's like, 'oh, God, he went to 25; what do we do?' Chances are, they're fine.

But at the same time, you want to be cognizant of all that, but it's really about how you prepare in-between games and what's going on, and how do you manage that load, and it's kind of an art.

Coach Bud (and) Steve Kerr, they do such a good job naturally of having such a good feel for, 'hey, we need to put, this is the amount of practice we need, both at an individual level, but also at a team level, and then preparing for (the game).

But now we have the data to kind of back it up and plan and be more strategic, and rather than, 'hey, everyone, you have a 20-minute individual workout, we'll practice as a team for an hour, and then tomorrow...'

Now, you can be much more structured. Maybe you want 10 minutes with an individual, or you can do 20 minutes, but it's all film, with a little shooting. You can be a lot more intentional and strategic in how you build out those time frames. 

And so that's why I think ultimately, the solution is, it's the in-between the games, where it's like, 'hey, we're trying to maximize games,' and maybe that is, rather than nights off, it's like, 'hey, it's a light night for you. And maybe that's an 18 to 24-minute game versus a 36-minute game. There are probably other ways to look at this rather than just like, 'hey, you're off tonight.'

Bobby Krivitsky: For sure. And then, Dennis Rodman was an advocate of the post-game workout; it's something the Celtics did last season after wins, and it's certainly not uncommon around the NBA, as you're well aware. Is it something you believe is beneficial?

Keke Lyles: Yeah. Part of it is what you're trying to achieve in your workout. What's the adaptation response you're trying to do or maintenance, you know? And so a lot of it, it's like, 'okay, where's the most optimal time to both have them ready for a game and then also train certain qualities that we're trying to develop?

And to be honest, after games does make sense sometimes, not all the time, but for sure, sometimes. It is so hard, the more I've done and kind of like, recovery and going down this path, where it's so late at night, and we're definitely affecting sleep. The games are affecting their sleep, for sure.

So, it's like, do you add on another thing? There's some of this that probably we need to study a little bit more. But again, sometimes you're just dealt with what you're dealt. Here's our schedule. We're traveling. When will we get this sort of training in? Post-game works really well.

Bobby Krivitsky: Regarding shifts and what those minutes look like, 20 minutes can look so many different ways, especially depending on what your role on a team is.

For the Celtics, of course, they want to have Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown, at least one of them on the court at all times. So, it's common for one of them to play an entire quarter, or Brown plays 10 minutes and they short-shift Tatum. If you start to develop that routine and then adjust it in-season, does that increase the risk of injury?

Keke Lyles: It would be impossible to say that increases the risk of injury. It's more their routine. Players get really comfortable in kind of knowing what their shifts look like. But again, even that, you can play a quarter, and depending on who you're playing against, their style of play, how they're playing you that night, even that changes night to night.

It's not so much about the 12-minute stretch; it's what makes up those 12 minutes, how many dead balls are in those 12 minutes, how many free throws are shot, (etc.).

There are all these things, so you can say, 'hey, you're used to playing this, now, you're changing to that, but now all of a sudden, the intensity can be a lot higher because it's a shorter period of time.

And that's typically what we saw when we put guys in smaller chunks of time on the court, instead of an eight-minute shift, they're on a four-minute; guys naturally kind of control their intensity a little bit because they know they'll be out there longer.

And you could theorize (that) if you're at a higher intensity for a shorter period of time, is that a higher risk? Maybe. It's really hard to say. There are too many variables that go into that.

But I think, again, it comes back to understanding as we get more data live, we can make better decisions. We have a better understanding of what that four-minute (stretch) looked like.

I think you can look at it six minutes now kind of live on the bench, and be like, okay, this is an intense six minutes. We're probably, either from a basketball skill perspective, they're fatigued, (and) they're not executing as well; okay, now we know why.

Bobby Krivitsky: You were instrumental in helping Stephen Curry overcome his ankle injuries. Teaching him how to load his hips to help unload his ankles. What were you seeing that allowed you to recognize he was relying too much on the latter?

Keke Lyles: I told everyone I had this huge advantage when I got there. They've been going down this path with stuff for a long time. So it's like, 'okay, what are all the things that haven't worked yet?'

So, I had that advantage, but it's really just watching how he moved and looking at his loading patterns and then working with him in the weight room to understand how well he loads, how strong he actually was, and then how he expresses that on the court.

Working at Uplift, we didn't have these sorts of technologies back then that would have made that a lot easier to quickly say, 'hey, we're seeing these sorts of movement patterns.'

But again, technology is amazing, and where it's come, even in the last ten years, and where it'll be in the next ten years, a lot of this information will be a lot more efficient. We'll get it a lot quicker. It'll be a lot more actionable. So, in theory, we should be helping guys stay healthier a lot easier than we've been doing in the past.

Bobby Krivitsky: Is it common for you to watch a game, even at the highest level, and spot players who are overly reliant on a part of the body that puts them at risk for injury?

Keke Lyles: Yeah, I think most people, my friends, my wife, specifically, don't enjoy watching games with me because I've become very critical of everything. Just movement in general. Like, 'oh man, I hate seeing that.'

And then I've become very inquisitive, like, 'I wonder what he's got going on?' I wonder what's going on there. Is this normal; is this not normal? So, I don't think most people enjoy watching with me.

Bobby Krivitsky: Jayson Tatum went from playing in the bubble to a truncated offseason, another campaign, then the Olympics, a Finals run, and now he's second in minutes per game and fourth in total minutes. He's also played in 68 of 73 games. Do you think that workload has done more to help his durability than hurt it?

Keke Lyles: In general, yes, I do. If he's recovering, and it sounds like, from what I hear, he does all the little things too. So, it's one thing if you were to train hard, and training, including playing all these things hard, hard, hard, and you're not focused on sleeping, you don't eat well, then that will come at a cost, eventually.

But if you're exposing your body to stress and then you're recovering well from it, that's adaptation. So, now you're increasing your capacity. So, in theory, what Jayson's done, and a lot of these guys, that's the goal, right? It's increasing capacity so (that) now your body can handle more.

But you can do that by doing a lot, as he has, but you also have to take care of yourself to allow your body to recover to adapt. So, I would say yes, with the caveat, as long as you're doing the little things to recover, so you're actually adapting.

That's one of the things we always talked about with our guys. After a game, I want you to feel like you can go play another game; you have the capacity to do so. And if you feel like you finish a game and you're like, 'I'm done,' then we have work to do. It's just that simple.

So, that work looks different for different guys. But I think, generally speaking, that's what Tatum's done, or a lot of the Olympic guys because they're all usually on deep playoff teams, and they go on and play (in) the Olympics, (where) there's a high level of competitiveness. It's intentional training too. I think all that stuff can be really good.

Bobby Krivitsky: Robert Williams has had trouble staying healthy throughout his career, and it had a lot to do with him falling to 27th in the 2018 draft. He's leaping less this season, and they're not throwing him as many lobs, either. It felt like guys used to throw it to the rafters and see if he could go get it.

Do you think that trying to rely less on explosivity is sufficient? Or is it more probable than not there's a movement-related adjustment that he should make, as Stephen Curry did?

Keke Lyles: It's really hard for me to say without actually knowing him or working with him, but I would say as humans, it's pretty safe to say we all generally have some kind of imbalance, somewhat.

And sometimes, that's a good imbalance. Like, you see adaptations that come from a sport, and so they've adapted in that imbalance helps them excel in their sport. And then there's that fine line of, 'this imbalance helps me, but then once I go on this side now it's gonna hurt me.'

And so that's why ultimately, professional athletes, not just NBA players, but all professional athletes, they're on the line of that. They're on the tipping point. That's what makes them who they are. They're some of the world's greatest athletes. They operate, they move at a speed that most of us can't relate to, (and) they're more explosive. You have to kind of flirt with that line in order to be great.

Now, I would assume he does have some imbalances and some injury history stuff that probably puts him at higher risk. And I'm assuming that they're probably doing everything they can to help with that.

But again, that balance and the hard thing is, we don't actually objectively know what that line is; there's no number; it's our best guess.

Bobby Krivitsky: And I'd imagine it can change, right?

Keke Lyles: It definitely can. And so, it's this moving theorized line of optimal performance and injury. But the analogy of a car (is one that) I love. 

Race cars have the highest horsepower, the best suspension, (and) everything, and those guys are driving near (the) red line and RPMs, right? They have to, that's the fastest way to get around the track, but if they spend too much time above the red line, a gasket blows or something. Things break. There's a capacity that we can operate at, or a car can operate at.

That's the interesting thing. That's why it's so individualized because what Robert Williams needs versus Tatum versus Brown versus anyone else in the NBA, they all need their own specific, 'here's your limitation. Here's your dysfunction or, here's your imbalance, let's work on that.' But at the same time, we're trying to optimize performance.

Bobby Krivitsky: What do you want people to know about Uplift Labs?

Keke Lyles: Love it. The biggest thing with Uplift is we're capturing motion and looking at biomechanics in a way that just wasn't really available or easily available before, you know, all this stuff. I worked a lot with some guys in the past and motion capture and force plates, and you had to spend time in a lab and (be) their multi-hours, and it required a lot to ask from guys.

But now, with Uplift being more portable and easy to implement, you can capture it out on the court, in the weight room, it's flexible, so now we're getting data to understand our athletes a lot easier, so it becomes a lot more powerful to say, 'okay, here's the game plan we need to create based off this information.'

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