Dwayne Johnson & Mark Kerr Talk Stone Cold, The Rock’s First WWE Bout & The Smashing Machine

Clearly I didn't have any money for a good haircut.

When was that?

Wow, look how judgy you were with that.

Oh my God, when was that?

Oh, that picture, that was his very last wrestling match.

I rock bottomed him 3 times, by the way, after the 123.

I leaned down in his ear.

I said I love you, man.

So Mark, you know this this whole tour has been such a crazy tour already what a crazy experience for us, uh, you know, as we go around the world promoting Smashing Machine so you know I'm excited about this because about this moment what we're doing here with Sports Illustrated is taking some of our most well iconic definitive moments of our career that led to.

Well, us being here right now, so I think the first one we're gonna see a scene from the film Smashing Machine.

I gotta say to see Mark back out there after everything he's been through is truly remarkable.

Mark, you ready?

What point?

It's your fight against Ensign when you came out of rehab and you were fighting in the Grand Prix right in Tokyo.

Yeah, it was Tokyo Dome.

It was the it was the first fight back and it was like the, it was like a trial.

It's like it's like trying out again for the Japanese to see if I was like up to the task.

OK, so take me through this moment as you were, uh, kneeing Ensign, did you feel it in your body like this is it?

Yeah, I mean, you know, like a lot of that when, when, uh, after the Volchantian fight and all that stuff , um, and it was my first fight back.

How many months prior was the Vantin loss?

With the year?

Yeah, within the year.

Oh, for sure.

And, um, you know, it ended up being like one of those because a lot of that is like it's, it's once I start doubting myself, that's the first crack.

So, so I can't, so after, after Volchanian, it was like this doubt.

I had myself.

And it was like, OK, I got to go through all of this stuff through treatment, through recovery, through rehab, and then I gotta emerge on the other side of it and be not just the same person, be better than than I was before, right?

Was it the loss that triggered the, you know what that or was it ultimately.

It was that it was that whole, it was like a cocktail of just crap that I was that I was in and that was the straw that literally just set me over the top and uh everything from there that loss, did you fall into depression?

I did.

I did.

It was just one of those things where, you know, um.

You know, in the one interview, uh, I can't even conceptualize losing.

I've never thought of losing.

I never.

I never even thought, right.

And so the whole idea behind, like, you know, even though it was a no contest, I lost the fight.

That's not why you did.

No, it's not.

No, I, I want a definitive like did I win or did I lose?

And that's why you fight because at that moment you know when you came back and you beat Ensign, where was that, what kind of revelation was that for you?

It felt like I was on the right path again.

I felt like I was right.

On the right path I'm sober clear headed, had my training schedule dialed in, had everything around me dialed in and it was like this singular focus again.

I was, you know, really like I was like in a groove, you know, this is like, OK, this is, this is like flow state.

I'm like things are coming.

And I'm and I'm moving towards what I want, which is that OK, now I want the grand prize.

You coming back beating Ensign, it's a big comeback for you.

You overcame so much you were in the hospital, the OD happened we talked about it you're lucky to be alive, grateful to be alive.

Coming into that fight and winning that fight against Ensign clear headed now and clean was the high from winning a different kind of high than back in the day for sure, for sure you know what it it was, it was a lot more enjoyable.

That was the part where I missed, I missed the joy it gave me to compete and train and focus and get the outcome that I wanted.

So I completely missed the joy in the other wins I had.

And it came back.

It came back.

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.

That's a miracle, really.

It's amazing.

Well, we go from you in the Grand Prix to now me, uh.

What year was this?

This is me at WrestleMania 13 in Chicago, and the reason why this was very definitive for me was I was in the company not even a year.

I was a rookie.

And um Vince McMahon told me very early you're gonna become the youngest intercontinental champion but you have to smile all the time when you go out your music plays you gotta smile as you come back you gotta smile and I remember telling him I was like man that doesn't feel real authentic and he goes yeah but I wanna make sure people know that you're grateful to be here and I went and I thought God I I wonder if there's another way, but he's the boss and you don't know what you don't know.

So what you're seeing there at WrestleMania 13 is that's a culmination of months of being inauthentic, not being real, smiling.

I mean, dude, I used to go out, my music would hit, and fans would be like suck and I'd have to smile.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks man.

Yeah, that's awesome.

How crazy is that?

But that's to the point of all of this process of like being authentic to who you are.

You are great at what you do.

But to challenge yourself and have that authentic belief in yourself that you can do way more, you know, in this whole, whole entire journey that we've been on has been this self discovery and it and it's actually it, it actually connects back to your story.

Benny Safdie said this about you one of the, and I'm paraphrasing here, but one of the greatest triumphs about our film is the fact that you yourself as a human being as a real man Mark Kerr found your own authenticity.

And finally after all these years you are comfortable with who you are today and by the way that's the great life lessons, right?

You're in your 5th level of life.

I'm in my 5th level of life back then I was in my 20s, dude.

And my booed because that that crowd, they know a phony when they see they know if you're, oh my God, they know it.

And then finally know it.

Vince McMahon had a meeting with him the next night at Monday Night Raw, and he goes, hey, we're gonna take the Intercontinental title off you.

And I don't know what happened, what we did wrong, but we gotta try and figure it out and then I wound up tearing my PCL and I end up meeting you in Venice and I met you.

That's when I met you.

It's crazy because he sent you home.

He sent me home, and he said.

Sent me home when I got hurt and then I went out there to Venice and I was working out at the Venice Gold's Gym and that's where I met so funny because that's, I'm just telling you this stuff is kismet.

It's so kismet, man.

Yeah, not a lot of people know this, but you and I meet and I, and at that time you were already ascending, and it was just crazy and I remember meeting you, meeting the guys Don Fry, Shamrock Shamrock Sever, all those guys, man, all your boys.

And um I remember Vince McMahon called me back.

He goes, OK, I'm gonna bring you back and I'm gonna make you a heel.

You're gonna join a group called the Nation of Domination.

Oh my gosh, and the and the rest is history.

The rest is history.

The rest is history.

Please welcome in Octagon.

my Uh.

And Kerr with a.

Oh my gosh.

This is the tournament.

This is UFC 14.

I was overcoming a lot of the stereotypes that I grew up with, right?

Like if you're 6'9, 400 pounds, you're the toughest dude in the room.

If you're a 10th degree black belt, you're the toughest guy in the room.

And so there's still some of that residual that existed in me of like, oh my God, these guys are kung fu guys and they're karate guys and so.

You know, that first match was like, OK, I just, I need to just make this guy wrestle me right immediately where you think I'm gonna take him down.

Oh yeah, I'm gonna take him off his feet and I'm gonna take him down to the ground and it's like, you know, any high level wrestler that's like paramount to, to, to their success is.

Being able to control where the fight happens and so you know I didn't understand all this clearly until later to look at it and go oh that's what I was thinking that's why I was doing what I was doing and so immediately I get on him and it's just like oh now I'm gonna maul you.

I was just gonna say, so once you take him down in your mind it's.

I'm not around.

Oh my gosh, it's, it's one of those things I was talking about like I didn't understand how addicting it was to take somebody's will.

Talk a little bit about that.

Oh my gosh, it's .

You know, I understand it a lot better now than I did when I was competing, but it was like what, like, like Fabio Gel when I fought him, right?

He wouldn't give it to me.

Didn't matter how hard I hit him.

It didn't matter how much pressure I put on him.

He wouldn't give me his will to win.

He just wouldn't give it up.

You guys went a long time.

Oh my God, man, it's like almost a 20 minute fight.

Yes, I mean, it was this crazy like just give it to me.

And he wouldn't, and it was.

Like unsettling for me.

Unsettling.

Like, you know, the referees finally stop and I get awarded the win.

So in here in these fights, it's like I'm putting enough pressure on you where I want you to give it to me and I'll do anything to get it.

And you could feel that shit before even the stoppage comes before knocking you could feel when you have taken somebody's soul.

Yeah, David Goggins calls it soul stealing, right?

It's just because it's one of those things where it's like it's so personal.

Like I'm taking your will to win and it's just the same as taking your like will to live or I mean, it's that powerful.

And you talk about like the, the, the addiction of the crowd.

That's another that amplify.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah, they can feel it for sure, especially with you when you have that reputation.

Like Mike Tyson, yeah, when he was undefeated, like you when you were undefeated, unbelievable this guy's gonna come in and he's going to, oh my gosh, it's, it's, it's incredible because looking back on it going, oh, that's what I was after.

Like it's almost like now almost like ashamed to admit it because it almost seems like a dirty little secret like I'm gonna take your will to win.

You know, do you think fighters feel that way today?

Oh, for sure.

So why do you think now as you've matured that you're a little ashamed of that?

Because what I had to do to get it.

Because I had to literally inflict a severe punishment on another human being.

Call, call it.

Right, and that's, that's the paradox, right?

That's the paradox of like of, of my heart who I am.

I like to compete.

It is a paradox, man.

Yeah, I always say you're this walking contradiction of a beast of a human being and, and, and at one time the greatest fighter on the planet, but yet at the same time.

You would wreck someone and stay in the ring to make sure they're OK and you go check on them or you go in the back and go check on them.

Did you feel that differently when you were down in Brazil, Valetudo, no holds barred , no gloves, no mouthpiece, no rules?

Was the soul taking a little different than as opposed to the regulations of the UFC cage?

It, it was because there's no limit to what you can't do basically and so that.

It, it was, it was strange because he, it's like looking back on Paul Varlins right when I started punching and kneeing him and stuff like that, like I'm, I'm pausing.

I'm pausing.

Like if you watch the original footage, I'm pausing to give him a second to just give up.

That I just want him to just, hey, I.

I don't you get it?

Like looking at him feeling almost uh.

Pity for him.

Like just give up, dude.

You know, it's just, it's just crazy realization looking back on it, how, you know, what I was going through, like emotionally, what I was going through and And all these little contrast and paradox and, you know, with with all the work that you and I did together and you you were so just amazing helping me through helping me get up in here, yes, and also, you know, so when we shot that scene with you and Varlin's down there and it was, I remember mentally where I had to go and .

Emotionally where I had to go because you fought multiple times that night, not just you win and come back next week you win and you come back later that night and you fought multiple times that night and I, I got one question for you because we show it in the smashing machine and I did it in the smashing machine and when I did it in the smashing machine for our scene I've never been in a position like that before.

I was already living in your skin I feel like so to take my thumb.

Oh, and to put it inside the cut that you slit his face open and just to open it up a little more.

What was going through your mind at that point?

Is this just a, I will continue to take your soul's the level, it's, it's like the in the like looking back on it now I understand that, um.

It's, it's like showing him the level I'm willing to go to to get you to give me your will to win.

I'll dig.

I'll, I'll, I'll, because you're in there and it's like I just want to inflict the minimum amount of pain for you to go, OK, I can't beat him.

I don't want to engage and beat you into a pulp, as, you know, if it's necessary, that's where I'll go.

No.

If, if I'm pushed to do that, yeah, I will, yeah, and it's just one of those things where in the moment it was like, I just need you to give me your will.

This is what I'm willing to do.

It's me being frustrated that he's not giving it up and just this like.

I'll, I will do this, yeah, yes, and if necessary more, yeah, it's just like looking back it's just crazy like because in my own head sometimes it's hard for me to resolve like wow I'm a competitive like wow that's a completely different switch.

So for somebody who I know actually you did not like to fight.

In terms of fighting, street fights and this, and it's not your thing, it's not like, hey, I'm gonna scrap this guy, you know what I mean, after work and we're gonna go outside in the back, not even from the bars, it's like that's just not in your nature so that switch is just fucking crazy that you had.

I, it's like I didn't know it.

I didn't know it existed.

This is a primal, primal like caveman survival switch of like.

Whoa, I can, because it it surprise you sometimes it did because it, because it's a, it's a place that, that was just unfamiliar.

Did it scare you when you went to those places, uh, a couple of times it did because it's just one more after the fight and you're alone and you're coming down from coming down would be the, the, I mean, most people don't understand like after a fight, it's the loneliest place in the world.

I mean if they're being honest with themselves, it's, it's a lonely place to be, even if you win, even if you win.

The reason why if you win.

Because you got nothing in front of you and you feel like you have to do something like you just did the thing, yeah .

And you got to do another thing now, right?

But it's not there.

It's not like, hey, tomorrow I'm gonna go do that same thing.

It's, it's just crazy.

So what a high you come down.

Oh gosh, yeah, yeah.

And then you have to fill that high sometimes have to do it again, yeah, it's a crazy place.

This is all the stuff that you know I was so lucky to get into your brain in your head and you share all these things.

It translates in the movie, right?

You you did an amazing job.

Thank you, brother.

Now there's gonna be the man right there.

That's blue chipper right there.

You know what, I have to agree with you, Jim Ross.

I don't like you, but I gotta agree with you.

Rocky Maia is looking good, 1st, 3rd generation.

Clearly I didn't have any money for a good haircut.

When was that?

Wow, look how judgy you were with that.

Oh my God, when was that?

I was gonna throw.

Where's your fanny pack, bro?

The fanny pack's in the locker room, by the way.

So that was a crazy night.

That was my very first night.

So here's the crazy thing you have your very first fight down in Brazil, Valley Tudo.

You, you never had a professional match, right?

So you're throwing up in the locker room.

You can't keep anything down.

I think you tell your manager, I can't do.

I can't.

He's like, No, you, no, he's, yeah, he, he's just like, you can.

He's like, you can do this.

And it was like one of those things where it's like.

You can do this.

So it wasn't like get the fuck out there.

He was like, no, no, no, no, he's like, he, he's like, you can't.

And part of it was like, you don't know what you don't know.

He knows on the other side of it is that these athletes that are coming out of wrestling, they're just cut differently than all this other stuff that exists in this fighting world.

And so he can see it clearly, right?

And so he's just like, you can.

And you need to trust me that you can.

And that was like one of those things where it was like, Deep breath in and it's like, OK, yeah, and then you, you, you went out there obviously and you clicked and you, you worked, uh, in, in pro wrestling.

Our, our terminology for having a match is, is work so you have that night in Brazil, Valley To you go on and you win the whole tournament.

You beat 3 or 4 guys, 3 guys at night, yeah, OK, so here's the irony that was your first night ever as a pro.

What you just saw there in that awful blue wrestling outfit that awful haircut, my fanny pack is in the locker room at Madison Square Garden, but that was my very first match at Madison Square Garden at Madison Square Garden in front of 22,000 people, and that was a pay per view Survivor Series.

I'd never had a professional match.

That was my first one too and just like you down in Brazil, Valley Tudo.

Head first into the fire and this was it, my big debut Madison Square Garden and it's a tournament style Survivor Series so I had to beat.

Two or three guys that night too as well.

Now when I say beat they were lucky, nice enough to pull me over and let me win.

I always like making sure that you know there's a difference between Mark Kerr beating someone and then the Rock beating someone, but, and I'll never forget, man, just like you backstage nervous 22,000 because especially just like in Brazil, just like for me in New York City, Madison Square Garden.

If it doesn't go well, uh, that's your debut.

If you don't win that tournament, OK, well, maybe you're gonna make something of yourself, maybe you won't.

If I don't perform here and that New York City crowd it's hardcore they get a sense of.

You're done So luckily that night.

I give a lot of credit to my fellow wrestlers who are like hey kid, this is a big opportunity for you because by the way Vince told me he came to me earlier that afternoon and he goes.

Do you know what the finish of the match is?

I go, no.

He goes, you're going over.

That's, that's what I said the whole thing.

He goes, the whole thing.

You're either gonna sink or swim, and this is gonna be baptism by fire.

Oh my God, that's head first, head first, yeah, 24, 25 years old , man.

Wow, I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

And so luckily the other wrestlers.

Put me over Jake the Snake Roberts, Jerry the King Hall like these guys are legends are legends they believe in you, etc.

gonna put you over and then you know what the best thing about that night was the crowd and that they felt something there was a nice connection there and the rest is history, man.

Yeah, when Valley Tudo, when was that for you?

That was it '97, 997, 97, 97.

Do you remember what month approximately?

Uh, uh, January.

Holy shit.

So January of '97, November of '96, just two months earlier, is that moment for me.

That's awesome.

So that parallel parallel existed.

You were sticking your finger in the cups of opponents taking their wills, and I was running around with a bad haircut and an awful wrestling outfit that I, that, that people still with me about.

And now you're gonna me because I never should have showed you that, dude.

I'm showing up in blue Speedos, man.

You don't know that yet.

Such a good man, such a good guy, right?

It brings back memories, right, when you used to train with him and.

And speaking of good guy, this was this guy helped me so much, Mark.

He was on top of the world and he saw just a little bit of potential in me but also smart enough to know he's like, man, we got some chemistry, man, me and you and I, I was not in a position to say, hey, let's me and you work together, let's go headline WrestleMania.

He had to say it and he went on, he went to Vince McMamahon in 1999.

In January of '99, I think he's, and he said, I, I want a main event WrestleMania with the Rock.

And the rest is history and we went on and I went on to have this, the, I mean just the greatest rivalry with him.

Like I've, I bought some of those pay per views, by the way, thank you, man.

I did because it's just one word like, like just as a fan of that I mean part of it.

You know I love watching it because it's, it's live storytelling like I, I just remember some of that stuff and just how Austin just he had another gear, another persona that was just incredible like he just come up with stuff and sing with you just like where did they come up with that line?

You know, just like, just because it just is incredible.

That was a fun time back then.

I was at a time before the company was a publicly traded company, you know, we could fly under the radar and that what you just saw that picture that was his very last wrestling match.

I had the honor of wrestling him his final match that's historical as you leave the business.

It's The right thing to do and the respectable thing to do is to lose as you leave and put this guy over.

Let this guy who's gonna go on the next chapter, let him win, yeah, and he didn't have to because he was the biggest star in wrestling, but he did.

He put me over and I, when as I was pinning him, I rock bottomed him 3 times, by the way, you know, he like Kurt Angle, he had a broken neck and he's been wrestling, a broken neck.

And uh after the 123 I leaned down in his ear I said I love you man .

I was like I love you too he had that moment beautiful moment what a moment man yeah.

Oh wow.

How, how, how much do you weigh there, Mark?

200.

It's 2 220.

220 is a weight class.

That's Kurt.

Oh, that's Kurt.

But that's you.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah Yeah, yeah.

So there's Kurt again.

I, I'm almost a brick Roman like throw.

Oh my gosh, he was so good at it.

Kurt was one of the most incredible athletes, right?

Just unbelievable.

God, it was such a challenge.

He was way faster than me, you know, he really was.

I mean, he was, he wrestled heavyweight in college and then both him and I competed at 100 kg, 220 pounds, and uh.

I just, you know, I faced him.

I think our final records against each other are 4.

I won 4 times and he won 4 times or 4 and 4, you know, and it's just one of those where he just won the 4 in the years you needed to win them pre-Olympics and Olympic year.

So, you know, when we competed against each other, it was like all out.

It was.

It like I knew like, oh man, this is like a different level, a different gear I need to get to, right?

Because there's just no other way I'm gonna beat him.

Yes, no other way I'm gonna beat him, you know, I felt that when you talk about his gears like there's guys who I wrestled with who, and this is why I always, I loved wrestling guys who were just insane athletes who had a pedigree at other things and that was always Kurt Angle, insane athlete, as you know, pedigree in wrestling gold medal at the Olympics.

Wins the gold medal with a broken neck.

I mean it's just wild, you know, Brock Lesnar was the same, just incredible pedigree athlete.

You could go anywhere in the ring with him and.

Um, and you know who else was an amazing athlete was Booker T, who I love, amazing athlete, just these guys who are athletic guys, which makes me think.

Had you not become who you became, you as a pro wrestler again.

You would have been a good pro wrestler, man.

You have fun.

You would have been insane, man, the way your motor is and the way your, your head is.

I believe like your promos would have probably been crazy.

You would have been, you would have your promos, I think you'd be the Jake the Snake Robert Robert's promos were so soft spoken and he spoke down and here's the thing, right?

I feel like you'd be like scary giving those kind of promos, man.

You know, if you were to wrestle and I'm just waved a magic wand, what would your wrestling be?

Oh, the professor, the professor, yeah, oh shit, yeah, OK, the professor, and then what's your finishing move?

Uh, it's gonna be, um, the lab bomb the lab.

I I love that because I'm gonna just bust all over you.

Wow, you ain't making any money with that shit.

Nope, not a dime, man.

Not a lab, not a dime.

I might need some refinement on that one.

You made the right choice.

You went on to become the smashing machine.

That's you.