Inside Tom Dundon's Cheap Standoff With Portland

All right, Bill Orum is with me, columnist for The Oregonian.

I said in my intro, Bill, that you were among the first to raise the alarm about the Portland Trail Blazers' future in Oregon.

So let's start here.

What was your first warning sign?

What set off your first kinda spidey sense about the future of the Blazers?

Well, I think early on in Tom Dundon's, uh, I, I can't say his tenure, but after he was identified as the owner, the number of people who just said to me, Portland has never seen anything like this guy, you know, they are not at all prepared for the way that he is going to operate and the way he negotiates, and, um, and I think that that has proven true, kind of at every step of the way, you know, his mindset and his mentality when it comes to negotiating is so firm.

Um, you know, I've been told a number of times he doesn't negotiate, he sets his terms, and you either get there or you don't.

And so, when, when it became clear that the Blazers were going to try to um secure a long-term lease at the Motor Center before the sale was complete, when they were going to start that process in the 2026 legislative session, that caught a lot of people by surprise.

You had a, you had a six-week session of the of the legislature, and then all these other dominoes that needed to fall in place really perfectly.

And if you have any familiarity with Oregon, but especially Portland politics, that is not the way things happen, especially in a moment where the city of Portland is operating with a new charter.

You know, we are in, I think, year two of a whole new system of government in the city of Portland, a new, a new city council, a lot of um people who are new to local government, and a lot of questions even about how the government functions.

It was a lot of moving pieces that were going to have to fit together perfectly to get this deal in place, with the understanding that if If a deal did not get through.

It set up a perfect opportunity for the new ownership group to say, we tried, they didn't want us, they couldn't get it, get there, let's look elsewhere.

And as I've reported on this, and it's become clearer and clearer what the challenges of operating a team in Portland actually are, given the economic realities, given the direction of the market, um, you know, it is not a, it is not a city that is growing in terms of population.

It is losing businesses.

Um, the economics of the team have been really bad when you hear people talk about, um, The team being last place in sponsorships, the only team that wasn't able to secure a jersey patch sponsor.

Ticket sales have been way down, um, in past years.

They were, um, charging among the, I believe, the lowest prices in the of the of the 16 teams in the playoffs.

It's just a hard place, you know, the business side, people would tell you, a hard place to make money.

And for somebody like Tom Dundon, that is.

You know, anathema and also um is going to get him motivated to look for a change.

And so I don't necessarily think that he bought the team to move the team.

He has said in the past that it is, um, it is hard to move a team, and that is true, but I think as he has gotten deeper into this and better understood what it is he bought, the optionality that he bought with the team has become a lot more appealing.

Yeah, um, You, you've reported on this a lot more than I have, but it struck me when I've had some phone calls, mostly with league officials, just how much leverage Tom Dundon believes he has.

Um, the Blazers need or the city needs the Blazers more than he needs the city.

Um, and it's, it struck me and a lot of league officials who are, you know, I'm, I'm speaking more to the league side than I am to anybody in Portland, just the exasperation on a league level with how this is going, and I think that was reflected in Adam Silver's comments in Vegas.

Uh, during summer league where he, he just usually the, you know, cheery-eyed optimist about some of this stuff.

Adam would usually say it's gonna get done.

We're working through some stuff.

Like watching his kind of face kind of go blank and seeing him deadpan, like, you know, there's, this is off track, I believe was his phrase, was really revealing to me and, and told me where the league thinks that, that this situation is.

And, and Dunon clearly believes that he's got, A lot of leverage here and he's gonna get whatever deal he wants or else he's going to do what he wants or at least try to do what he wants.

So let me ask you this, like, he wants X, the city is willing to do Y.

Like how big a gulf is there between what Dundon wants and the city is willing to do?

It's It's, it's big from the standpoint of a lot of these deal terms are things that the Blazers have been very clear throughout, you know, to me in conversations I've had, and in these ongoing meetings they've been having with the city and county.

That they are not going to be open to doing, you know, like when you look at labor harmony, the idea that every job in the Motor Center is going to be unionized, you know, the Blazers, you know, they have a number, they say that will cost us 1 more to operate.

I think the number I've heard is like $6 million more to operate.

You want us to pay rent?

Well, that's XX dollars more for us to operate in a place where they would argue they are not able to.

Make money or it's hard to make money.

Now it is that much harder to make money because the city is imposing um these demands on them in in in the deal.

So that those sorts of things are issues.

The other issue is, um, It, it, there's, there's a sticking point in the lease that refers to a first class standard, and the building is, you know, the Blazers, when they signed this lease back in the 90s, agreed to maintain the building at a first class standard.

They built the building, Paul Allen built it, um, they maintained it and operated it for the 1st 30 years.

Um but that, that first class standard has become a real sticking point in this because the Blazers.

Do not.

There was a threat from a city councilor about a month and a half ago that, well, if the building was supposed to be maintained at a first-class standard, and now they're asking for $600 million doesn't that suggest that they should have put $600 million more into the building?

So shouldn't the city just be suing the Blazers for $600 million because that's the price that they've put on it.

So the Blazers have retreated and essentially said, as long as you're threatening to sue us, we can't come to the table with more information because anything that we give you could be used against us in a lawsuit.

So now there is sort of this retreated to their corners mentality because the Blazers aren't coming to the table over that.

So, it's not just the terms of the deal, it's the ability to even get together and discuss the deal at the moment.

And that is um what is currently imperiling this because, you know, as you know, Chris, time is, time is ticking.

There is a self-imposed August 12th deadline to get a term sheet through the city council, and then numerous steps that bring in the state and the county.

And get a memorandum of understanding and then a lease needs to be signed by December so the state can sell bonds that it approved in their own session, um by the end of the year, so construction can start in 2027 or the state's money goes away and like that's a really key piece of this too.

If the state's money goes away, that's more than you have to go back, it's more than half, it's 365 of the, you know, I think, I think the real number is 573, but we use 600 as shorthand.

The state's money goes away, and I've been told in no uncertain terms by by legislators in Oregon that they're not gonna do this again, that the, the effort to get the 365 through the legislature was so, um, was such a heavy lift, required so much political capital to do that once and then have the city say, um, no, to essentially reject it, that's not a, a, a gift, essentially that the state is going to be interested in trying to provide again.

So it, it's a really delicate moment.

The, the temperatures right now, where would you say they're at?

Because I've been reading your stuff, Joe Freeman's stuff, Jason Quick stuff, and there's a lot of legislators firing off their opinions, background quotes from people within the Trailblazers that are they're real quotes.

They're, they're not the mincing words in some of these background quotes.

Now, I guess the Blazers are gonna show up at this meeting sometime this week.

Maybe.

I don't, I don't know.

That was, I guess that was the, the last I was kind of reading about, but I mean, listen, this is, this stuff is changing by the hour, but you know, Dwayne Hankins did tell the athletic that they were trying to get there.

Um, and trying to figure out a way to get there, but that's where that first class issue that I was talking about earlier comes in, because if the city is saying we're not going to essentially strike that from what we're discussing, I don't know that the Blazers are going to be able to get there.

Like, given the position that the Blazers have taken and the position that the city is taking , I don't see how they get there.

So, I'm certainly I, I hope that's what happens.

I've seen no indication that that's what's going to happen other than Dwayne giving a diplomatic quote to the athletic.

Um, you know, if it doesn't work out and if Dundon does wanna move the team, what do you think are realistic options for him, because the NBA, I, I don't believe would let him move to Seattle or Vegas.

I think they want the expansion fees that come with it, $8 billion.

10 billion dollars, whatever the number is.

Vegas will obviously be probably more than.

Seattle.

Um, but do you get any sense what his leverage is on relocation?

In terms of in terms of locations, I think that it's more of the body of potential cities than it is any one city.

You know, I think you could talk yourself into a list of 7 or 8 cities that could be targets, and there's a good reason why.

Each of those would not work.

Um, but, you know, there's been noise about Saint Louis lately.

Um, I've heard plenty of people say that Saint Louis isn't going to be interested in doing the, the public financing, you know, for an arena dance again, given, given the scars there, um, you know, but, you know, some people laugh at this.

I'll, I'll drop it here again.

Um, you know, Kansas City obviously is, is, is one that you hear a lot.

Austin is the one that comes up a lot, and I know that San Antonio is 70 miles away.

I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, uh, ignorant to that fact, and do, I do not think that at face value, the Spurs would like to have a team in a, in a sister market.

That said, everything is negotiable, and Austin is a robust market that is the economic, um, Inverse of Portland, even though maybe things have slowed slightly in Austin, it has been, it had explosive growth, it has a great sponsorship base, tons of tech money.

It would be a huge, um, boon to the NBA .

You'd take a team that is, you know, among the, um, maximum receivers.

Of revenue share to a team that would be instantly profitable.

And so, you know, from a financial economic standpoint, a city like Austin would be really hard to argue with what would need to happen to get the Spurs on board and to get, you know, not, not, not that the Spurs have the ability to veto it necessarily, but to get the, the rest of the board of governors to, um , Essentially do that to the Spurs, you know, what would that require?

I think would have to bear out over time.

It's kind of a similar proposition with Nashville, given the proximity to Memphis, Raleigh, yeah, and I don't think Nashville, I don't think I've pretty much, yeah, I've pretty much been told that Nashville's off the table.

Like, you could see the Grizzlies in Nashville before, you know, the end of the decade, like, and they're gonna play some regular season games.

I, I've spent time in Raleigh, um, you know, it is also a growing market with a better sponsorship base, more Fortune 500 companies, proximity to Charlotte.

Uh, robust fan bases for three major universities, college basketball teams.

Is there room in that market for an NBA team?

Um, you know, you could, I think you could argue it both ways, that building is getting, is getting a facelift, but it's really a, it's a refresh, not a remodel.

Um, but again, when you look at the number of cities that you could make a, a credible argument for that could come to the table if given the chance.

One of them or more than one of them is going to present as a really credible uh landing spot, I think.

You know, to zoom out a bit, like, how much of this is Jodie Allen's fault?

Jodie Allen was, has, has been liquidating, uh, all of Paul Allen's assets over the last 10 years or however long it's been, 8 years, whatever it may be.

Um.

And, and could have sold the team to anybody.

Like this money is not going in her pocket.

It's all going to charity, right?

Like, you know, Paul Allen's wealth is going to charity.

She sold this team to a guy who, even if you knew nothing about him, you'd know he'd be a legitimate threat to taking this team.

Out of Oregon.

Uh, you know, how much of this does, do you, the people of Portland, the state, like pin this on Jody Allen?

Like couldn't you have, you know, tried to make something work with Phil Knight?

Like couldn't you have tried to make something work with somebody a little bit more local?

I know they got the guy in there that's, you know, the minority owner and is, you know, big on Portland, but that's not the same thing.

Like it's, it's Tom Dundon's team.

He has the final say on all this stuff.

Like how much of this should we be putting on Jodie Allen?

Like, Jodie, why did you put us in this position?

Now, I know, I would say this.

I know the NBA wanted Tom Dundon.

Like they, they wanted him because they like the idea of a guy with experience running a professional franchise owning an NBA team.

They love that he's an operator, but Jodie Allen could have sold it to whoever she wanted to, and she chose to take the $4.25 billion from Tom Duncan.

How much of this is on Jodie Allen?

I'm thinking about this answer in terms of what is going to get aggregated and what is going to piss off my editors that I'm saying to you and not putting in the headline of a column on OregonLive.

com, the online, uh, counterpart to the Oregonian newspaper.

Uh, I don't think it is an overstatement to say.

All of it.

Because This was all done very intentionally.

Everything I've, every conversation I've had about this points to this all being very much by design, where Tom Dundon is not the one who is making this happen, he is simply Playing his part and executing a, a vision that predates him entering the picture.

As you said, this was, you know, proceeds are all to go to.

Um, to charity.

Jodie Allen had an obligation or felt like she had an obligation, of fiduciary responsibility, what however you want to put it, to maximize the value of the franchise.

For all the reasons I've talked about already, the value of the franchise has problems, right?

The value is that it is an NBA franchise, but the, the thing that depletes its value is that it's in Portland, Oregon, a place that is, I mean, Chris, I'm from here.

I grew up a huge Trailblazers fan.

Like, I do not say this to demean the Trailblazers as a, as a, as a cultural institution.

The, the, the, the value, the emotional value that it has here is indescribable, but from a financial, economic standpoint, it has been a struggling franchise that has not been able to, um, That has not been able to create revenue in a city that has been, has been moving backwards for a number of years.

So, that is not a team you're going to sell for $8 billion.

And how do you create value?

How do you maximize the value?

You leverage portability.

The portability of the franchise is what made it worth $4.25 billion.

So, Tom Dundon bought a team that he either was going to be able to move, or that he was going to be able to squeeze.

Every dollar out of public entities to keep it here.

He is doing.

The thing with the thing he bought that he was told he would be able to do when he bought it.

This was designed Years ago, before Tom Dundon entered the picture, and The idea that he is the one who is coming in with the idea of moving the team, I don't believe that that was a novel concept in the, in the arc of the Trailblazers.

That was something that Jodie Allen Vulcan understood was the way to maximize the value of this franchise.

Now, There was a local ownership group that was that was that was trying like hell to get the team, Raj Sports, which owns the Portland Thorns and the Portland Fire, the WNBA, um, they had a very competitive offer, they would say it it matched Tom Dundon's offer, but to your point, Tom was more of, and, and, and granted, the Bethals, who are behind Raj Sports, minority owners of the Kings, own a WNBA team, also not strangers to the NBA, but Tom Dundon comes in with, um, You know, a very robust investor group, and also, like you said, the proven track record in the NHL, which was very appealing to the NBA.

So, he wins out for all those reasons, um, but also he's the one who's able to maximize the, the leverage of, of relocation, because if, if Raj Sports buys the team, they already have two teams here.

They're not, they're not gonna be looking to move the Trail Blazers, like, nobody would take that.

That threat seriously.

So Tom Dundon is the one who's able to fully maximize and realize that vision of being able to leverage the threat of relocation.

Do you think Paul Allen ever would have sold the team to Tom Dundon?

Uh, I, I don't know how to answer that.

I I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't.

I don't know.

It's an impossible question to ask.

I feel, I, I don't think, I don't think that during stable times, anybody with the Trailblazers would have.

would have drawn it up this way or would have wanted the You know, would have wanted to um create a path for the Blazers to leave, but the, I think that the business realities here.

have created a scenario where People who are willing to be uncomfortable view this as the only, the only real path.

Yeah, and listen, I've written that this is craven and distasteful and cruel.

It's all those things.

It is, it is so.

It is so horrible to do this to a city that has been nothing but loyal to, to its fans.

I mean, you know, the images of the 1977 championship are some of the most sacred that exist in, you know, to, to people from Oregon, you know, those, that is a turning point moment in the history of the state, the cultural, um, Backbone of the state.

The Trail Blazers are the are the thing that have elevated Portland to a global city.

Um, obviously, you know, Nike is just down the road in Beaverton, but I think you could even argue, does Nike even, you know, survive here for, you know, 40+ years if there , if it isn't a Major league city with a Major league sports franchise in the Trail Blazers.

And the Blazers are not just the thing that made us a Major League city, they're the thing that keep us a Major League city, and so the idea of losing the Blazers.

Um, is, is simply gutting, and I've, you know, I've, I've written, it's kind of a joke, but not really, that the Blazers are the thing that make us more like Seattle than Spokane, and the idea of moving backwards, especially given the You know, the momentum that the city has endured since, since the pandemic, the summer of 2020, the, um, the You know, the urban flight that has, that has, that has, has occurred here, losing the Trailblazers would be a blow that I don't even think that any of us would be alive to see the city recover from.

Yeah, uh, I'm going to put this all on Jodie Allen.

I've, I've, I've felt that way for months now because like fiduciary responsibility, most ownership groups have that to shareholders, etc.

What fiduciary responsibility does Jodie Allen have?

Like, to whom?

Like to the charities, sure, but you could have sold this team for $3 billion and some charities would have received $3 billion in revenue.

In addition to the, what did the Seahawks sell for $10 billion.

Something like that-ish, the, the yachts, the art collection, charities are doing just fine with the Allen estate.

You, you could have on your way out the door ensured a smooth transition for a franchise that is beloved in the community, for a fan base that has been loyal to them.

You could have sold the damn thing to the city for 1 buck, or you could have done something unique with this team and still given tons and tons of money to charity.

The decision by Jody Allen to do this.

Ultimately, Tom Dunnan is doing what Tom Dunan was gonna do.

Like this, this is who he is.

Like he's, he's taking the Hurricanes blueprint and dropping it straight into, and you've done reporting on this.

I was reading your stuff the last couple of months.

Like you went down there.

Like this is what he's doing.

He's doing the exact same thing.

He's replacing management people, replacing coaches, using cheaper people, uh, embracing the analytics approach, all that stuff.

Uh, he's, he's being himself.

Jodie Allen could have, She could have stopped this.

She could have stopped this.

She elected not to do it.

Uh, I put her there.

So the, the next benchmarks for you, I know there's that self-imposed deadline of August 12th, but what are, as a reporter out there, kind of what are you looking for over the next few weeks?

What's gonna be the next indicator for what's gonna happen with the Blazers?

It's, it's gonna be, can, can the grown-ups, you know, get together.

I actually think the city of Portland has, you know, particularly the city administration from, you know, you know, there's the mayor who has championed this for a long time, and, and sort of the administrative staff, you know, alongside him, including the city administrator and their staff.

They have been I think very.

Uh, they have been very reasonable on this.

I mean, they, there is obviously the framework of a deal that they've maintained, and it's been made very clear to the city council that the numbers aren't changing.

The amount of money that the Blazers need for this to work is what it is.

It's $120 million a year upfront, and it's the operating cost of, you know, $14 million a year.

Um.

You know, how, how the city gets there with, you know, what pots of money that, you know, they can, they can argue over that, but the number has to be the number and you have to be able to get there one way or the other.

Um.

It's, can those, can, can the city get to a place that the Blazers will come back to the table?

Because right now the Blazers are just not engaging publicly.

I mean, they're, they're getting together and meeting, but they're meeting about what they need to do to be able to meet publicly, and that is Currently holding up the process and we're, and, and they're running out of the kind of rope that they need.

And by the way, there's been so much noise about this for so long, for so many months to get to a place where it's like, OK, now we're kind of close to the date that you need a deal, that they're only now able to talk about some of these sticking points because there was so much time spent being performative and loud by people who were never gonna actually affect the decision.

You have some city councilors who have been grandstanding for months.

Um, and creating a huge, um, public backlash that really just kind of got in the way of the ability to get to a deal.

So that's been frustrating.

Um, but You get the term sheet, like you alluded to on, on, on, on the 12th, and then, are there meaningful substantive conversations that are getting to Me memorandum of understanding, and then a lease that needs to be signed in December.

That is ultimately the breaking point here.

Can they get a lease signed in December?

If not, Everything is Chaos, and I actually don't even see a path to the Blazers staying.

Like, if a lease isn't signed in December, I don't really see how the Blazers would stay.

Last one for you.

Um, if they were to move, like how catastrophic is that for the city?

Like, some of the stuff I've been writing is that You know, as painful as it is, you almost got to bite the bullet, you know, close your eyes and think of England.

Whatever, whatever you got to do to get a deal done with this owner who is obviously greedy and looking to get whatever he wants out of this deal because he believes he has leverage.

Yet, to me, you got to do it because when Seattle left, Even at that time there was a belief that their team would get back there.

It's taken a generation, but there is a team going back there.

I don't get the sense there'd be that same feeling with Portland.

Like if the Blazers left Portland, I don't think there would be this, you know, reaction from NBA people like, OK, we'll, we'll get a team back there eventually.

Maybe I'm wrong, and, and maybe it would happen, but I think if they left, Portland would no longer be an NBA market.

Um, how Uh, can you qualify how disastrous it would be for the city to lose this team?

I, I, I, I, I don't know how to put it any more strongly than Then I think it would be the death knell for the city as we know it.

It, you know, this is the, this is the institution that has made us a A real city.

If you have read, uh, Sam Anderson's excellent book on Oklahoma City, Boomtown, which is one of the great, I did read that nonfiction works of the century, you know, there's, there's parts where it talks about Oklahoma City leaders targeted a Major League sports franchise because that is the thing that makes you a real city, and that language has stuck with me.

The Trailblazers are the thing that have made Portland a real city for 56 years.

And most of us who live here don't remember a time before the Trail Blazers.

There certainly is a generation of people who do, but I think that we all were born into this, and we just sort of take for granted that this is an NBA city without really looking under the hood and examining whether that's even really true.

And if you were to zero base the NBA and scatter 30 teams or 32 teams around the country.

I don't think a team would be put in Portland, Oregon right now, so.

The same way that cities fight to get a team, cities that haven't previously ever had a Major league franchise fight to get one, Oklahoma City being a great example.

To me is the way that Portland should be fighting to keep the Trail Blazers, because the alternative is It is difficult to comprehend, and that's why, like, I still feel like a deal is going to get done, because the, the idea of the team leaving is so incomprehensible, and it's in everyone's best interest for the team to be here, with the exception possibly of of Tom Dundon.

So I, when the rubber meets the road, I do feel like a deal has to get done because there's no alternative, but there's very real paths to it not getting done.

So, You know, economists like to argue over whether, like, public financing of stadium deals is good business, or if it's economically justifiable, and I just don't think that that takes into account.

What it means if you have a city with one Major league sports franchise, and I don't mean to discredit the fire of the WNBA, you know, the horns or the women's soccer team or the Timbers of the MLS, but the NBA is just a different animal.

This is a, you know, $5 billion.

Business in a 100 $100 billion dollar industry , um, to lose that engine, that economic engine, but also that That cultural and emotional tissue.

I just think, I just think it would be the end of the city as we know it.

The city would go on, but it'd be something very, very different and something.

Significantly lesser and worse.

You know, it's a, a secondary issue, but all the moves he's making from a basketball perspective, operational perspective, Uh, broadcast perspective, like these are all the things he did in Carolina.

Like how do you think it's gonna play at the NBA level?

Because like, I think we're probably like 3 weeks away from the boom goes the dynamite kid being named the play by play guy for the Blazers.

Like, I mean , this, you got 1 PR person as far as I know on the basketball side.

You lost at least 1, and I'm saying you, but like Portland lost at least 1.

Uh, assistant general manager, maybe 2, as far as I know.

I mean, there's I think you're down 2, yeah, I mean like I, I don't know, man , like I, I, I'm not versed enough in hockey.

To understand how well that model works, but I've seen the way Oklahoma City works.

I've seen the way San Antonio works.

I've seen the way even a team like Memphis works with how they've built out the infrastructure.

They're doing it in very different ways.

Like they're, they're fleshing out these departments, these basketball departments with real people, and they're paying a premium to get these guys to go there and to stay there.

What do you think from a, a basketball perspective, how this would work, you know, assuming the Blazers stay?

I, I think that you have to, you have to give Tom credit for the fact that his team just won the Stanley Cup, but they are completely different leagues, and I don't know that he has a full appreciation for the fact that the NHL is not the NBA, that the NBA is, is a, it's a bigger entity and a bigger enterprise than, than even the NHL and I think that this is going to be something that he's gonna have to learn over time, or that it's not going to be successful, because, as you noted, you know , successful organizations, they invest in the places that are not going to be subject to the salary cap, and Dundon will say he will invest in the players, if it affects the players, he will invest in it.

So equipment, facilities, um, you know, training resources, all of that.

But when you cut, when you cut support staff, when you cut front office people, when you cut The, you know, the people who engage with fans, meaning the broadcasters, all of that affects the experience, which trickles down to the players and the way the organization is viewed and the ability to attract players here in a place that was already difficult to get players.

You know, players care about who is on the staff, what, what, what people they're going to be working with each day, and I think that that is an under underappreciated part of the NBA from Dundon's perspective, and I think that there's going to be ultimately some growing pains.

That said, he's taking over a team that is in an OK place, like, the Blazers are, you know, I'm not, you know, they might be a playing team again, but they're competitive.

They have, they have pieces, they're in a position where they can make moves to get to a higher level in the West, and if the Blazers are winning, It's going to validate everything he's done, whether it's a result of those decisions or in spite of those decisions.

If you go to Carolina, everybody says, well, it worked, he knew what he was doing because he puts it all on the ice.

And he also took over a team there that, you know, immediately started making the playoffs, he hired the right coach on day one, and I don't know that it's been proven yet whether, you know, they've had success because of his ownership or in spite of his ownership, but from a roster standpoint and from a Um, player standpoint, he's gonna be really aggressive, aggressive, and he's gonna invest there.

He's gonna make moves like trading for John Morant that I don't think, you know, previous leadership would have done in Portland, and that's the sort of thing that tells fans that they have an owner who's really serious.

So, I'm torn because I actually think that the basketball is gonna be successful here, and I think that everything else is gonna be really painful, it's gonna be a rock fight every single year he owns this team one way or another.

Yeah, I mean, If it works, you're gonna see a lot of teams start to moneyball their way to success.

They'll probably copy that model.

I, I would say, and I've said this before, like when I talk to top executives, small market teams, they acknowledge that there's a tax.

In terms of paying guys, uh, to having them want to live in Oklahoma or Memphis or San Antonio or any of these small market teams like Portland is a beautiful city.

Shout out Domaine Serene.

Shout out Winderley.

Shout out all the vineyards out there.

I love it.

For 3 months a year.

It's phenomenal, but it is not a desirable city in the wintertime.

And if you are trying to be competitive for top talent in PR or in basketball operations or on your coaching staff, backbench coaching staff types of guys, you gotta spend some money to get these types of guys.

Now, maybe it'll bear out, you don't need them.

Maybe it'll turn out that he's, he's right, we're wrong, you don't need them, but History suggests the smart teams, they invest in smart people, they pay these guys a premium and that's usually a contributing factor to how it, how it all plays out.

Yeah, shout out to Winderley.

What a great pull by you.

Um, and I would, oh, it used to be owned by two Boston College, uh, people.

That's how I know that place.

Now it's owned by an Oregon State guy, so that's, uh, I know, I don't go there.

I don't want to order from there anymore now.

The BC people left.

I was, I'm out.

Um, I, and I would just say that I think Tom would take your argument that there is a tax that you have to pay extra to players in addition to the actual taxes here, um, that , that, that play that players are having to pay to, to be here, the tax that you have to pay players to get them here.

Is yet another reason why he would view it as important to cut all these costs that he's, that he's cutting, you know, from what he would call the periphery, and why he's driving such a hard bargain with the city, because every dollar that he has to spend elsewhere is a dollar that's gonna be harder for him to pay to a player to get them to Portland.

Hm, yeah, I can see that as well.

All right, Bill, I appreciate it, man.

I look forward to continuing to read your stuff at the Oregonian Oregonlive.

com.

You, Joe Freeman, did tremendous work there on the story and something tells me there'll be a lot more to read in the weeks and months ahead.

Appreciate your time, man.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it's ending soon.

Thanks a lot, Chris.

Appreciate you having me.