John Ourand on ESPN Layoffs, World Cup, & More

All right.

Joining me now, periodic visit.

Always a great time when he comes on from Puck.

Sports media reporter, John Oran.

John, how's it going?

Great, man.

How are you?

I'm good.

I'm good.

Hanging in there, you know, it's, uh , We've got a little bit to go before the NFL really starts to come back into our worlds .

So we're slow, slowly but surely, yeah, they, we had the, the nice interlude of a month of soccer, you know, that, that people cared about, I guess.

Yes, they certainly did based on ratings.

We'll get into that, um, but let me, let's start with the ESPN layoffs since that's, that's been the big story this week in the sports media world.

And I, I always hate talking about layoffs.

It, it just doesn't.

Just feels slimy, but gotta do it.

Um , and been through a billion layoffs at SI over the years.

So, I, I'm always taken aback by how much people, Don't get it when it comes to layoffs.

So before we even get into names and specifics like that, I mean, you can talk about this better than anyone.

I mean, what people have to understand is, there's two things here.

You know, ESPN at one point had 100 million.

Subscribers, if you will, on cable.

It's like 61 million now if I'm not mistaken.

They also just bought the NFL Network.

So, the business dictates these things.

It's not just like, let's fire people to have fun.

Am I missing anything else in there as reasons why there were layoffs?

Well, the, the, so that, that's been happening, you know, cord cutting and the, the number of homes that ESPN is in has been happening for a decade now.

And so the, before we started taping this, we called it the sort of the annual ESPN layoff show of sorts because they, they, they've been doing this, uh, for the past 13 years on a, you know, it's not an annual basis, a, a, a semi-regular basis, and, and.

You, I correctly identified the main reason why.

Um, what makes this, uh, a little bit, uh, more unusual is that, uh, earlier this year, ESPN just took control of NFL Network.

And so they brought all of NFL Network in.

And if you bring in a network into ESPN, Uh, you know, the terrible corporate word is synergies.

You know, there, there, there are a lot of people at NFL Network that do exactly the same things as, uh, people at, at ESPN.

So, when, when you have those kind of redundancies, you know, the, the, the job cuts come as, as, as a result of that.

I mean, how many NFL insiders does ESPN really need to have, you know, moving, moving forward.

And so you have that aspect of it.

And then you have a whole different trend.

That's happening within sports media where, you know, Pat McAfee takes up 3 hours of programming.

Stephen A.

Smith is on for, you know, several, several hours, and the idea of having these really big ensemble shows that take up, uh, uh, that, that cost too much money, uh, they don't bring in the viewership to, to, to, to warrant the money.

And then a Pat McAfee show will bring in more viewers, uh, or, or at least comparable viewers.

And, and, and so, um, You know, you, you're seeing also, you know, this is a product of, of, uh, 2020 and, uh, and, and COVID, you know, you don't need these big studios and big studio shows.

You can do what we're doing right here, which is, you know, I'm in my house in, in DC and you're up in New York and, and, and we're able to, you know, have, uh, produce video and, and, you know, the quality is good enough, I, I think to get out there and that's something that the Uh, networks, certainly ESPN has figured out, like the quality doesn't need to be top notch.

It can just be good enough and people are gonna wanna hear Mina Kimes when she, when she speaks from her house.

And the other issue too is I think what the sport fan who's not paying close attention to news or, or sports media news doesn't understand as well.

It's like, this was not just ESPN layoffs.

There were Disney layoffs.

I, I read that Pixar, for instance.

Um, got crushed.

So like, it's not like ESPN woke up one day and decided, you know, this comes from Disney.

This comes from above ESPN.

I think that's what people have to understand.

And like you said, when you buy the NFL Network, I, I, I, you know, I, I don't wanna, you know, I wanna tread very delicately here.

I don't want to say anything that could be construed as insensitive or offensive, but just looking at it, I was actually surprised the layoffs weren't bigger.

Because of what you said.

You bring in the NFL Network and you have so many people now doing a lot of the same things.

I mean, if they would have cut two NFL insiders, like, you know, Tom Pellisaro was, was part of the layoffs, unfortunately, but like, I wouldn't have been completely stunned.

I, I, I, I'm, I'm surprised they've kept as many NFL Network people as they have.

Yeah, and then even beyond the NFL Network, you have somebody like, uh, you know, uh, Karl Ravech, uh, Marchandbrook, that, that's, uh, a story that, you know, he called a game in Philadelphia, a baseball game in Philadelphia.

Well, ESPN's been slowly stepping back from, from baseball.

Uh, well, not slowly.

This season, they, they've stepped back from baseball.

There used to be a big Sunday night game.

They used to have studio shows around it.

And now they have like a week, a weeknight game that, you know, that it doesn't have exclusively and all of a sudden, like they take a look at that and say, what can we do to, uh, to fill in that booth there.

And so from a, you know, it, it, like you talking about layoffs is difficult because you're talking about people and you're talking about people's livelihoods and, and somebody like Karl Ravech has been around for a long time and has a lot of fans and has a lot of people who recognize him, know him and, and like him.

But then if you're, if you're a number cruncher on the other side, with ESPN, you just kind of, you know, given all those other aspects, you, you just have to look at it and say like, does this make sense for us from a business, uh, uh, point of view?

I mean , listen, I'll be perfectly blunt because like I said, we've been through this so many times at Sports Illustrated that I know exactly how this works and what the logic is.

You know, Ravich is someone who's been there for 33 years.

So that means he's making a big salary.

And when you have to do layoffs as a company, they don't say, you know, the, the overlords don't say, drop that person, drop that person, drop.

It's usually a number that has to get cut.

You've got to cut, you know, whatever it is, a million dollars, $5 million.

10 million dollars from the budget.

So they're looking at Karl Ravech.

He's been there 33 years.

So he's making a lot of money just based on, The, the length of time he's been there.

And then like you said, they lose Sunday Night Baseball.

They don't have a bunch of baseball inventory.

They've got Boke Chambi, they've got Mike Monaco, and they see Ravich's salary.

That's how it works, unfortunately.

Nobody likes it, but, Sadly, I understand it because I've been through it at Sports Illustrated.

So, you know, I, I, I, I was surprised even when they lost baseball, there weren't more cuts to baseball people.

They don't have the playoffs anymore either.

Yeah, and, and it's funny you say, uh, you know, because, uh, you cited Sports Illustrated and the cutouts at Sports Illustrated, uh, you know, anybody that's been in journalism for as long as I have and as long as you have, this is, you know, it happens and it happens a lot.

And, and, And you know that the decisions, as you correctly said, aren't, aren't based on quality.

It's not like, oh, this guy isn't, isn't, uh, doing well.

Let's get rid of him.

It's based on a bottom line of trying to make, you know, the, the, the, uh, profits and the debits and like a sort of a, you know, uh, meet, meet each other a little bit easier.

And that's exactly what, what happens.

So it has so much less to do with, uh , with quality.

I will, I will say it was, uh, Uh, I found it fascinating.

I wrote about this in, in, uh, my newsletter on, on Tuesday night, um, watching, uh, Stephen A.

Smith and watching Pat McAfee come out and publicly discuss these, these layoffs.

In a way that didn't take the corporate line or the company line was something that's new and unique to, to the, to this round of layoffs.

I haven't seen that before.

And then Stephen A.

Smith even said, you know, he was, they approached him about Ryan Clark and he said, keep Ryan Clark.

Whatever you do, keep Ryan Clark.

And Ryan Clark was, of course, 111 of the, the layoffs as well.

Um, that, that's something that you don't see that's, that's unique.

To, uh, ESPN, I can't imagine if NBC Sports has a similar thing that Mike Tirico is gonna, gonna go out and put out a, uh, a YouTube video on, you know, why, why he wants, you know, name, name the person to stick around.

Well, that, that's sort of the double-edged sword because in the worlds of McAfee and Smith, everything is content.

They're on, like you said earlier at the beginning, they're on the air so much.

They have so many hours to fill, so many minutes to fill, and everything with them is content.

And I, you know, and, and Pat's obviously getting beat up because so many people just take it as, Oh well, they're given Pat this money so they gotta fire people, which again, not really how it works.

Yeah, I think that that's a total, I, I, I understand McAfee's frustration on that.

I, I, I do think that's unfair because all of a sudden he's taking over like 3 hours of, of programming on , on ESPN.

And not to mention what people just refuse to understand is that Pat does not, like, he's not an ESPN employee.

They, ESPN license his show.

So it's a totally, I mean, he's an employee for college game day, but the Monday through Friday show is, is Pat's show.

Not ESPN's.

Exactly.

And, and, and also they, you know, the, uh, if you talk to Jimmy Potaro anytime, they always talk about, um, it's more than just ratings.

They, they, they do these surveys and they, they have, and, and, uh, McAfee and Stephen A, they, they rank at the top of those survey surveys consistently.

I mean, that's what, that's what drives a lot of this as well.

Yeah, yeah, I bet, I, I bet people would be stunned if they saw the money the McAfee show makes just from social media.

Oh, they, they with the, they, they, I, I keep saying they have 3 hours.

I think it's 2 hours on ESPN and then the, the 1 hour that, that, that, that's a YouTube, uh, channel as well, which ESPN views as a marketing vehicle.

Like, you know, people watch it on YouTube and, and they, they get the branding in there and it, it fits with McAfee.

It fits with the audience that they want, they, they want to attract.

He's deep into, uh, of course, the NFL and college football, which is, You know, much more important to ESPN than, than baseball is, uh, uh, for obvious reasons.

Yeah.

Now, obviously, the big story that came out of this was the Ryan Clark situation where he finds out during NFL Live.

Another case where I think people, you know, I, the way I saw people react, what made that even more bizarre was he was not in studio and like walked off the set.

He was at home doing NFL Live that day.

Um.

I wrote this on, on Tuesday, the day after it all happened.

I'm not sure because ESPN got really beat up pretty good in, in, in the court of public opinion about how it happened with Ryan Clark.

But once, Reporters are seeking comment because they know he's going.

I don't know what else ESPN is supposed to do.

I'm not saying the situation was handled in a, in a totally fantastic manner.

Obviously, it wasn't.

But the flip side of that is, I don't know what ESPN was.

The only, I wrote what I wrote was, maybe it wasn't smart to put him on the air on Monday when you knew you were gonna.

Cut ties with him on Tuesday.

I, I, I think obviously, if they had a do-over, they would have maybe changed that.

I mean, you are putting the guy on the air at 3 o'clock on Monday afternoon and Tuesday at 9 o'clock, you're gonna give him his walking papers.

So maybe you wanna take a shot at ESPN for that.

OK, but the way it all happened on Monday, I'm not sure what ESPN was supposed to do.

You know, I think ESPN could have done a much better job with this.

And again, this isn't the first time they've had layoffs.

And I've, I've been part of those phone calls too where I'm calling and saying I'm hearing about , and it's like, oh, well, we, we want to let them know first.

Like they know this whole process.

And so the, the idea that they had to wait for as long as they needed to wait in, in , in order to talk to Ryan Clark or, or whoever.

I, like, they're, they're, I'm not gonna pretend, I'm not gonna suggest how they should have done it, uh, differently or done it better, but, but it should have been done better and, and, and what happened in, in that scenario.

But what are they supposed to do once they find out the media knows he's getting laid off and you have to assume the media is gonna know.

You have to assume the media is gonna know about all, all of this.

Agents talk.

Right, uh, talent talks.

People find out the executives talk.

You, uh, you, you can't, it, it, it is the height of hubris to say like, OK , we're gonna do this on Tuesday and nothing's leaking until Tuesday.

It always comes out.

Something does.

No, I agree with you from that standpoint.

I'm just talking about this specifically Monday while he's on the air.

If they wait till after the show, he's gonna read it on Twitter.

Before they get to him.

So that's what I mean about what were they supposed to do in that situation.

Like I said, I, if I were them, I wouldn't have put them on the air Monday, but I wouldn't have put them on the air on, on Monday because like, you know, you know what's gonna happen and you know, and you, you have to have that sus uh suspicion that it's gonna leak out.

to.

I'm talking specifically in terms of telling him during NFL Live, during a commercial break on Monday.

I, I sort of, I'm just saying, I get why they did that because do you want him in a commercial break going on his phone, scrolling through Twitter and sees, you know, RJ Marshian.

Uh, Brian Clark out at ESPN.

I mean, then what happens?

Yeah, yeah.

Then what, what, what does he say on, on, on air at that point, which is, which is again like that, something that should have been thought about, uh, moving into it.

I , I guess given the scenario, the, the very specific scenario that you're giving me, I guess there was no other option to do it, but they shouldn't have, that they should never have been in that place in the first place would be my main point.

I think that's both of our main points, both of our points.

I think we're saying the same thing.

And, and, and You know, everything has been about sort of the way it went down with Ryan Clark and he got told during a commercial break and people are bringing up things with Peter Schrager and him talking about RG3 having a white wife and all this stuff.

And I've seen no one mention too, like, this creates a huge opening on ESPN's Monday Night Football pregame, halftime show.

Which is a big deal because they have the Super Bowl this year.

So, you know, obviously, a guy gets fired on Monday.

You don't want to be like, oh, who are they gonna put on the pregame show ?

But, That is a big opening, not because of NFL Live, but because of, you know, this is gonna be the Super Bowl.

They've lost someone who would have been, he didn't get laid off Monday .

He's part of the pregame and studio show for the Super Bowl this year.

Yeah, and I, I, I expect they haven't announced anything, but I expect that they have, uh, 49 other names that , that are gonna be, uh, on, on air at ESPN, ESPN 2, ABC, you name it, NFL Network that, uh , that, that will, uh, carry that.

That's, uh, but that, that, that is a good point, yeah, um .

I'm trying to think if there's anything else on the layoffs.

I don't think there is.

I mean , the, I don't think like I, I, I wish, like, I wish, I wish we could go deeper on it, uh, Jimmy, but it like, uh, like that, our main point, my main point is that it just, it happens all the time and, and, and it's gonna happen again, if not next year in, in a couple of years.

Uh, and, and this is, this is, you know, an unfortunate, uh, byproduct of being in the media business and we see it happen all the time.

Though one of the, you know, if you want to get inside the weeds on sports media, I think one of the things I thought about periodically before the layoffs, and I sort of feel it even stronger now after the layoffs is like, it comes across to me, now, they'll say they do, but it comes across to me like they either don't have a plan or don't know what they want to do with the NFL Network.

And the more I think about, like, the more like as time passes, it seem more and more it seems bizarre that they bought the NFL Network.

I, I think one of the one of the things about NFL Network is that it, it already, it was already fully formed.

Before ESPN bought it because ESPN executives will tell you that they are used to, uh, operating something like NFL Network because they operate the SEC Network and they operate the ACC Network.

Uh, they operated Longhorn Network for the University of Texas before the, the dearly departed Longhorn Network.

So they know how to operate.

Uh, specific, uh, uh, sports-specific or conference-specific or leaguespecific, uh, channels.

Uh, the, the only difference is they launched all those.

The NFL Network, they're sort of bringing in with their, its own talent and its own way of doing things, um, The other difference, if I can interrupt you too, is they don't spend hours a day on ESPN talking about the ACC and the SEC.

They spend hours a day talking about the, you know, GetUp is all NFL.

First Take is all NFL.

They, they have NFL Live.

So like, It just seems like you're duplicating everything.

It's, that's, that's what's different about that than what you mentioned, obviously with ACC Network, SEC Network.

Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm dying to know when, when they, when they share rights like with the NFL draft.

NFL Network had its own NFL draft, uh, going on this year.

Uh, yeah, what's gonna, are we really gonna have an ABC, an ESPN, and NFL Network, and maybe an ESPN 21 as well, being all being produced by the same company?

Like that's, that's gonna be, uh, and don't forget the McAfee draft.

That's, that's right, that, that, that it to be streamed as well.

So I, I, I do think that they are gonna run into the things, uh, like that, but, the, um.

The one thing about NFL Network is, you know, they, they have the, the morning show that, uh, that, that is gonna stick around, and they're all about the live games, um, and, and even though it's only, I think, 5 live games, that's what the cable operators pay for , and that's, you know, you, you can, you can do almost infomercials around those games and, and the NFL Network will still end up printing money because of that.

Yeah, I'm curious.

I mean, like, you know, we do have about, I don't know, I guess 8 weeks, but what, I don't know what Good Morning Football is gonna be, who's on it, what it's gonna look like, to keep it at the same.

It's, um, Um, I don't know, it just seems like it's, they bought it and I don't know, it's just there, sort of, yeah, I mean, I mean, if you want to step back and, and take a look at that purchase from a, you know, 50,000 ft view, uh, the NFL now owns 10% of ESPN.

The NFL is going out and it's going to, you know, take its pound of flesh out of every single one of these broadcast networks.

Is it better to be in bed as a co-owner with the NFL as, as, as you?

Move forward, or is it better to sort of not do it?

So there are, there are other reasons for bringing the NFL Network into the fold because I would suggest to you the idea of buying a cable TV channel, even one branded with the NFL is probably not the, uh, the, the smartest decision making, uh, that, that, that you wouldn't, you wouldn't see Netflix or Amazon or or any of these streamers.

They, they don't even want to own broadcast channels, much less, uh, go after some of the, the cable ones.

Speaking of streaming and, and broadcast, let's flip to, um, the World Cup, World Cup, which was obviously enormously successful for Fox and Telemundo from a ratings standpoint.

And now, The rights for the next World Cup in 4 years are up for grabs.

Is it a situation, because I, I, I don't know about soccer on any level.

I can gauge the, the other leagues a little bit.

Is it just highest bidder and if this is the company that offers one penny more than the next company, that's who gets it?

Or is there a concern about it being on streaming ?

Is it, we had a successful run here on Fox.

Let's stick with them.

What are the factors that'll go into that?

Uh, I think it's ultimately who, who's gonna pay a penny more.

Uh, uh, I, uh, I do think like, you know, if it's Fox that's paying 1 penny less than say, the zone, I think FIFA will say, we'll take, you know, we'll take the penny less and, and, and, and, and go with Fox.

But I'm so glad you, you said that because like, uh, I like that there's been some reports out there talking about, you know, the, uh, the, the starting bid is, is, it's starting at a billion dollars, you know, per, per, and, and that's not how the, the, uh, FIFA works is.

It, it, it, this isn't a classic negotiation.

In the way that US leagues negotiate.

Uh, they, they, they will give, uh, all the media companies that want to bid on this, will put their bid in an envelope.

They'll, they'll give it to, uh, they'll, they'll give it to FIFA.

FIFA will open the envelopes, take a look, and Netflix can say, We only want English language, you know, and, and so that, that, that'll be what, or maybe Netflix will say we want English and Spanish.

Like that, that, that's all part of the bids that are uh uh uh in the envelope.

Netflix could, in fact, do, do 3 bids.

This is our bid for English and Spanish.

This is our bid for English.

Uh, the, they're gonna go through that, then they're gonna pick the last two and sort of go back to them and say like, OK, you know, you're the last, you're the last 2.

Let's, let's try to make it go a little bit higher.

Uh, the World Cup was so successful here.

Um, uh, they're gonna be, there's gonna be so much activity around the rights.

But like, I'm, I'm , I'm a little bit skeptical because it's, you know, the, the World Cup was on, on American soil.

Uh, Americans love a big event.

Americans, and each one of these games, especially in the knockout rounds was a, was a legitimately big event.

Uh, next year, it's gonna be in Europe.

The year after that, it's gonna be in the Middle East.

Time zones are a killer in terms of that.

Uh, the ratings.

The TV viewership for the, for the next World Cup is gonna be down, what, 30, 40%?

I mean, your, your guess is as good as mine.

It's not gonna be as, as, as high as it is, but when it, when it was held in, in the US.

So the, the idea that That FIFA is gonna like waltz into like doubling of, uh, a doubling of the rights fee is, uh, that, that's, uh, I, I'm, I'm a little bit skeptical, skeptical in terms of that, even though I think there is gonna be a lot of activity from companies that wanna end up, uh, going, getting these rights.

Now, is it a situation.

Where it's, you know, Netflix, Fox, ESPN, or like, are there, you know, is CBS in the mix?

Is NBC in the mix?

Is Apple in the mix?

Who do we know who's in the mix?

Yeah, I would, uh, uh, so ESPN, uh, Jimmy Potaro has said that they're interested, of course.

Uh, you know, if you asked me if Puck News is interested, I, uh , yes, we'd, we'd be interested in, getting it as well.

Why not?

Um, uh, but Jimmy, Jimmy Tar said that he's interested.

Fox is certainly interested.

Netflix, uh, has the Women's World Cup next year.

So, uh, uh, and so they're, they certainly would be interested.

I would be shocked if Apple doesn't kick the tires on this.

They, they went to the nth hour, uh, for the, uh, club, uh, the FIFA Club World Cup that, um, uh, that, that came out last year.

Amazon has a, you know, a big international presence.

I think they could be interested in it.

NBC owns Telemundo.

Telemundo has a current rights, they, I think they would certainly be interested in, um, at least the Spanish language rights.

Uh, the, and, and over in, um, at Paramount, CBS you have, uh, Ellison came in.

The first, his first move was to, to pay billions upon billions of dollars for the UFC.

So would he be interested?

I would think so.

On the, on the, uh, on the other side of the coin.

Uh, Paramount has so much debt, they have to start cutting here and there.

Will they really be interested?

NBC is just being spun out from Comcast.

Will they have enough to sort of get out and do it.

Um, I talked about Apple being at the, uh, uh, um, going for the FIFA Club World Cup, but they, they kind of, they pissed off FIFA because, you know, like they thought they had a deal and then they, they pulled out.

So what, what, is that a legitimate one?

YouTube.

Has a history of short-arming these negotiations at the very end.

Like they, they were the front runners for the five-game package of the NFL and they didn't get it.

So there are a lot of reasons for these, uh, media companies to do them, and there's also a lot of reasons to be skeptical that they're actually gonna be, uh, be, be really serious about it.

Got you.

All right.

Um.

Uh, you know , not, not exactly like the most important and pressing topic from the World Cup, but I did write a column on Wednesday.

What I found interesting about the ratings being so good throughout, I mean, obviously, you had the whole Nielsen thing with the new measurement, so you, you know, there's a little bit of a grain of salt, but the ratings were good no matter how you spin it, very good.

Um, I, what What I noticed as someone who doesn't care about the World Cup per se, is these ratings were so good.

And all of these games, or most of the games were played at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

And we live in a totally different world now.

Post-COVID, so many people work remotely.

Even if you're working in an office, everyone can stream any game they want at any time.

I would like to see these other leagues.

I, to me, here's what's never made sense.

MLB has the MLB network.

You have a network, MLB network, MLB.

There should be a day game every single day on that network.

Every day, Monday through Sunday, there should be a day game.

I'd love to see the NBA, you know, a late, well, maybe the Lakers are tough cause it's West Coast, but like a Knicks-Sixers game at 4 o'clock on a Wednesday.

On ESPN.

I, I think the rating would be better than anyone thinks.

The old school mentality was always prime time , prime time started as late as you can in the East Coast.

The ratings at 11 o'clock at night , and I'm not comparing any of these things to a worldwide event that's once every 4 years.

The only point I'm trying to make is, I think we used to think there's no daytime audience for sports.

And I think between remote working, everyone's streaming, and And I know people don't like to hear this, gambling.

Like, take it from someone who's a degenerate gambler.

We love having an afternoon game during the week to bet.

We love it.

And if you don't think that was a factor in the World Cup, you're completely lost.

So, I don't think leagues will do it, but I would love to see them.

Use the World Cup as sort of a, as a springboard to maybe experiment with some more daytime, afternoon, weekday scheduling.

You know, one of the things from the World Cup, you're right, is that it, it, it, it did prove that there, there is an audience.

In the middle of a weekday.

And if you spin this forward, I mean, nobody's working on, on the weekend, but, you know, the, the late Sunday window for the, you know, 4 o'clock, 4:30 window, whatever time the, the kickoff is, that, that window is the most-watched window.

Sunday Night Football is the most-watched primetime program, but that window, which always has one or two games in it, always the most-watched window.

Um, the, the, in college football, Fox, their biggest window starts at 120.

Uh, so there is a proof of concept here that games in the, in the middle of the afternoon, sometimes they do work.

Uh, uh, you talk to any media executive, they still want prime time.

They still want as late as they can, they, they can go.

But there, there, there is a proof of concept that there is an audience, some audience that is there in the middle of the afternoon.

Listen, I don't think if you put, you know, a Yankee Dodger game at 3 o'clock on Fox on a Wednesday that it's gonna get, you know, 10 million viewers.

I'm not saying that, but, I don't think you need to be afraid to, you know, the NHL I saw is gonna, they're gonna have Monday afternoon games this season.

I'm gonna be very curious to see how they do.

They're doing it.

The reason behind it from what I read is they're doing it to sort of get the European audience because those games will be prime time in Europe.

Um, Jimmy, we are taping this on a Wednesday and I can't wait for it to end so I can go watch my Orioles up in, uh, Fenway Park as part of a, a day-night doubleheader.

There should be games every day in the afternoon in baseball, every single day.

Um, What, I, you know, I feel like as someone who pays attention to this stuff, I've, I've almost tuned out to what's going on with the NFL and their new deals because I feel like it's changed a million times and we've heard a million different things and you're at the forefront of this.

Um, about, you know, they were gonna opt out early, not out of, we thought a deal would be done by now.

Where do we stand with the NFL and new television deals?

You know, exact, exactly the same place where I think the last time I was on here, uh, the NFL hasn't really negotiated tough with anybody yet.

They, they no, other than, uh, Paramount because they have that change of control clause that yada yada yada.

Uh, my expectation is that, uh, negotiations are gonna heat up during the season.

At one point months ago, the NFL had, had hoped to get this all wrapped up before kickoff.

That's not gonna happen.

Uh, the, the, uh, um, the one thing that I'm taking a look at is That some of these networks could, could be thinking, you know, instead of reopening these deals and paying like a billion dollars extra dollars or how however much more, let's just go.

Let's take it until 29, uh, and, uh, in 2030 and, um , and, and, and try our luck there.

Uh, and the NFL sort of has heard that a little bit.

There's been problems in DC, uh, not problems, but DC has been agitating a little bit, a bit about this.

Uh, I expect that the, the, the, the deals are gonna be negotiated this year, uh, during the season.

I expect that all the incumbents are gonna walk away with a, a little bit of an extension going, you know, to 2033, 2034 or something along those lines.

So, in terms of the main packages, which would be Fox for Sunday afternoons, CBS for Sunday afternoons, NBC for Sunday Night Football, ESPN for, um, Monday Night Football.

I'm gonna leave that Thursday night for now.

You don't see anything changing with those.

You'd be surprised.

Would you be surprised if anything changed with those?

Uh, I think that they're, they're, the changes that I see potentially happening is maybe they take a couple of games out of the Sunday afternoon packages.

Uh, so instead of having like a a window with 3 games or 4 games, you'll have a.

You know, you, you'll take one of, one of those games out to create another package to entice YouTube to actually come in or to entice, uh, Netflix to spend a little bit more or, or something along those lines.

But ultimately, I, like, ulti ultimately, I see it staying exactly the same and the main reason being, let's say NBC loses Sunday Night Football.

Well, they, they have a contract that goes until 2030, so you're gonna have a lame duck carrying your, your, for, for three full seasons.

I, I just find that, uh, really hard to, to, to see happening.

If, if NBC lost Sunday Night Football, I mean, is that because of NBC doesn't want to go that high for a bid or is it because the NFL, Like I would think the NBA, the NBA, I would think the NFL would be very happy with NBC on Sunday nights.

Like, they get a great rating, they give you a great broadcast.

It's, they don't, you know, do anything to embarrass themselves.

They don't do anything stupid.

They're a good network to be with.

I would think the NFL would want to be in bed with NBC.

Yeah, uh, uh, and the number one primetime show for what, what is it now?

13 years running, 14 years running, maybe 15.

I don't, I don't know.

But what if Amazon.

Which is, uh, has a market cap of, you know, $1 trillion decides, like, you know, we, we want that, that's what we want, and we're, we, we are willing to overpay to get it.

And so maybe we can switch out Thursday for, for Sunday.

Uh, that's, that's why the NFL would, would, would move on from NBC.

NBC wants to keep it.

NBC, uh, the NFL is very happy with, with NBC, but with, with, with these streamers and their deep pockets, you never quite know how, how far up those would go.

Yeah, I'm trying to think like if Amazon, I mean.

If you're Amazon, would you want to spend that much extra money to have Sunday night instead of Thursday night?

I know that, you know, there's a big difference in viewership.

Um, I mean, if I was advising Amazon, like, like, what, what, what added are you, what are you gonna get out of Sunday night that you're not getting out of Thursday?

That's what I'm, that's what I was trying to think, yeah.

But, but then like, what, what if Apple wants in?

What if, uh, what, what we can play the what if game, you know, what if YouTube is like, OK, you know what, I'm serious about this, or, or, you know, even Netflix.

We want, Netflix wants to eventize, right?

What's a bigger event than the best game of, uh, uh, per week on, uh, uh, throughout the NFL schedule?

Well, if, if you're just speaking for an NFL fan, not someone in the media, but if you're an you'd want Amazon in business with the NFL, not Netflix, because Netflix will, they will make that game unwatchable like they do with the baseball stuff.

So, and Amazon does a really great job.

I, I've seen all the, all the criticisms, uh, the, uh, Christmas, Christmas games on Netflix are pretty professional.

They , they, they, they appear to be just like the game.

The game, yeah, the game itself is fine.

It's before the hand when they, you know, have 78 people on a pregame show and they.

They make it very clear they do not care about the fan who, the, the actual diehard fan.

They get , they're trying to get the fringe.

When you say eventize, that's, here's what eventize means.

We don't care about the regular fan.

We're trying to get the fringe fan.

That's what eventize means.

By the way, the regular fan doesn't need anything eventized, you know, you know, eventize gets, uh, every single one of the broadcast networks.

They're like, that's all we do is.

Eventize.

What do you think we do?

We eventize.

I want less eventizing.

Just give me the game.

I don't need the eventizing.

Just give me the game.

I don't need Will Ferrell.

I don't need bells and whistles and concerts and just give me the game.

You're a gambler.

You're a big fan.

Like give me the lines.

They're trying to get the casuals in there.

They're trying to.

Give me the lines.

Um, last thing before we wrap.

Does where LeBron James sign have any sort of business implications for the NBA?

Like, do they want him in a certain market?

Is it, You know, he's on the downside.

He's probably has one year left.

No one cares.

Like, is LeBron signing?

Does that have any meaning or impact in the sports media world?

Oh, thank you, thanks for asking this.

This is, uh, this is one of my favorite stories, uh, going on right now.

It means, it means a lot.

LeBron still carries, he still brings in viewers, and, uh, he can go to, what's the smallest, uh, NBA market.

He can go to.

You know, let's say the Memphis, yeah, he can go to Memphis and all of a sudden people are gonna want to watch Memphis, uh, uh, play.

And so what has happened is maybe by the time this posts, he, he will, will have decided where, where to go.

The, the Adam Silver and the NBA, they're trying to create a schedule.

And they can't create a schedule.

What if he comes to my Wizards?

All of a sudden, like the, the Wizards are, they're, they're gonna max out on, on, uh, you know, the, the national deals there.

If he doesn't, then, you know, we, we won't have that many.

I wrote this in my column.

I was stunned that Adam Silver publicly admitted that they're holding up the NBA schedule to see where LeBron signs.

Not that that's like a shocking thing.

I, I was surprised he'd say it publicly though.

Yeah, well, well, what if he goes to the Sixers and, and then they don't max out.

The, the NFL loses.

Fans lose out because people, people want to see LeBron.

He still is a, uh, he's, he still is a, uh, uh, a draw, draw, attraction draw.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

You said NFL too, but I know you meant NBA.

Oh, yeah, sorry, I'm, I'm so like the, the NFL deal that's in my brain.

No, I get it.

I, I don't know if you saw it because it really happened, I think, a little right before we started taping.

Did you see this story?

With the heat and the YouTube situation.

Oh, I love these stories.

Yeah, isn't that crazy?

And then, but they fired the poor social media YouTube person today, supposedly.

Oh, I didn't see that.

Well, I guess I, well, wait, I get, let me be careful.

I, I saw, I saw that.

That was now, the Heat were now post, it says here, this came out 3 hours ago.

The Miami Heat are now looking to hire director director of YouTube strategy.

And then it says 8, 18 hours ago, um, director of YouTube strategy from the Heat, um, I, I should have double checked to make sure this was real, but this is what is, uh, But I, you know, I would hope they wouldn't fire someone.

I, I don't, I hate firing someone for one mistake.

Like, I just, I hate that, but um, It is just press the wrong button, you know, come on, yeah, it is a great story though that, that, um.

You know, this person puts a YouTube video saying LeBron James introductory press conference, July 27th, posts that on July, you know, 22nd.

And here's what, you know, again, bringing it back to the gambling aspect of this.

You know, where LeBron signs is a huge betting thing right now.

All the, you know, all the sites are offering it and the odds are changing like crazy because, you know, one day there's, oh, here's a picture of him in Philadelphia, and then you have, you know, the heat thing.

So the odds keep having these massive swings, um, I kind of hope he drags it out just to drive everyone crazy because my colleague Peteter Hamby had a story of, uh, Governor Shapiro, the Pennsylvania governor, was having, uh, dinner with the Clintons and LeBron was there and he was lobbying the Sixers like, I'll come to Philly.

But, but talk about a draw.

This is like the decision, you know, 3 or 4.0, and, and people care about this.

It's, you know, maybe not as much as they did during the decision.

But it, it's, uh, it still is a, uh, uh, you know, a, a big media story.

A lot of people like to say they don't care, which means when you go out of your way to say you don't care, you kind of do care because if you didn't care, you wouldn't say, I, I care.

I love it all.

Well, I, like I said, I was blown away when, when Silver publicly said they can't make the schedule till LeBron signs because, you know, obviously, you're gonna see a lot more heat if he signs with Miami or Philadelphia and, and, and all that.

So, um.

I mean, the other biggest story of the week was sort of Tom Brady.

And His weekend at Fanatics Fest and becoming a WWE person and doing all sorts of weird things.

And I had people say to me privately in the business, so I was, you know, Fox can't be happy about this, or what do you think Fox thinks of this?

I think Fox loves all of this.

Fox, out of all the companies, right, they love the publicity.

They love the.

The, you know, constant attention.

I, I, you know, I would think Fox is thrilled that he's there slapping Logan Paul in the face.

Yeah, and, and, and, uh, on these viral video clips.

I mean, it doesn't fit my, uh, I'm not the right demo for, for all this stuff, but I mean, it's, it seems obvious that they're setting up some sort of WWE event, you know.

And, uh, the, the, the, he has been talking with the WWE about doing stuff and this is, you know, I don't want to date myself here.

It was, was Greta Garbo, the, the actress that like never did any publicity.

Yeah, Fox doesn't want that.

Like get out there, do stuff like stay relevant and stay known.

Yeah, I, yeah, I, that, that was a take I didn't get from a lot of people, um.

But yeah, so, Tom, I don't know.

All of a sudden, you know, there's the theory that when he was at the Pages and Belichick, he wasn't allowed to do anything and he's making up for lost time.

I, you know, does Tom Brady need to be playing flag football in Saudi Arabia?

I, I mean, it would be nice if there was a no every now and then from Tom.

I'm sure, by the way, I'm sure he says no to a ton of people.

These, these are the ones that, uh, that, that sneak through.

All right, how do you feel, um.

Rough season so far for the Orioles.

Oh, it's terrible.

You know what's, uh, you know what's especially terrible about this is I'm ready to give up on the team.

But we're like, I think we're like 3 games under 5.

I sorry, I use the Wii.

I've rooted for my whole life, so I apologize.

No, no, I say we.

I'm a Wii guy, so we're 3 games under 500 and 2 out of the uh, the wild card.

It, it makes no sense.

It actually makes me irritated as a fan, you know.

Listen, I give baseball a lot of shit for bad decisions, but the second wild card, you can't deny.

It keeps almost every team in it, and you can't really bail out, so it.

You know, it, it's a good thing from that standpoint.

I don't, you know, I don't love every team making the playoffs, but that's a, but you want to keep interest in the regular season for fans.

That second wild card does it.

And then can I go on an old man rant for you.

Our whole team was like constructed by a computer.

Uh, it, it is all analytics-based and like, like there's nobody, we do have Alonso in there, but Alonzo's not like, you know, he just plays every day.

Like we, we have no gritty guy that, that like, no glue guy, you know, to bond the team together.

We just have each individual.

The player is, you know, has like an OPS or whatever the, whatever initial that, that's not batting average or slugging percentage, uh, uh, you know, out there.

It's a, it's a, it's totally frustrating to, to watch, you know, this has been the Yankees for about 7 to 10 years.

And, and, and I always go back to, I say this all the time.

I'll know because I love Joe Torre, obviously, um, winning, winning all those World Series.

And it's in Tom Verducci's book about the Yankees.

And there's a quote that Tory gave Verducci, that Tory gave to Brian Cashman, and he said, to when, when Brian Cashman fired Tory ridiculously, Tory said, never forget.

There's a heart in there because these guys, these managers and general managers and, and dweebs in the front office, they don't care at all about the heart.

It's just whatever the computer says.

The Yankees are run by a laptop.

I mean, that's really what it is.

The Orioles are now too, and, and I think the computer.

Analytics, they don't care about defense anymore.

Monday night against the Red Sox, we had 4 errors.

It drove me, it drove me crazy.

It's a, it was a tough watch, tough watch, you know, I was on Deutsch's podcast over the weekend and he had asked me about the All-Star game.

I said I didn't watch it.

And someone online gave me shit for not watching it.

And then I like they had 27 strikeouts and they also, what am I watching?

What would I?

Why on earth would I wanna watch a game?

I'm still a sucker for the All-Star Game.

I still am strikeouts, but did you sit there and watch every pitch?

Oh no, it's on a, it's a, it says background noise.

I mean, the, the, the, I will say the home run derby this year was a lot of fun to watch.

OK, I can, but I mean, my thing with the home run derby is there's just nothing on the, like what are they playing for?

like there's nothing on the line.

Well, you know what it was, it was, uh, Schwarber was in there.

He's a hometown guy.

The crowd was into it.

The just the whole optics around it was, uh, that I was fun that I get.

I just, um.

Uh, you know, batting average doesn't matter.

It's launch angle and, and exit velocity.

It's just, you know, again, I don't really give a shit if it's old man take.

Uh, it's not what I enjoy.

I can tell you that compared to the way it used to be.

The average age of the listener at this point in your pod just shot up.

It's, uh, over 60, easy.

I should there used to be this thing in the game called a hit and run.

Used to be a stolen base every now and then, a bunt, but no, now it's launch angle.

All right, John, I appreciate you coming on as always.

This was great, and, uh, we'll see you soon.

Be well.

Thanks, man.

Have a good one.

Thanks.

You too.