Tang OUT at K-State, MACtion After Dark, NFL Combine Preview | Others Receiving Votes

All right.

Welcome back to others receiving votes.

Pat 40 remains in the land of the cappuccino, risotto, and gelato covering the Winter Olympics, but the pod will roll on without him.

There's no shortage of things to discuss this week.

I'm Brian Fisher, Sports Illustrated, joined by my SI colleagues, Kevin Sweeney and producer extraordinaire, Kent Brown to discuss more in conference realignment, a mid-season hoops firing that, uh, is, is worthy of discussion, Conference Player of the Year race and, uh, Of course, we will, uh, have a guest on later to chat about a few key prospects ahead of the NFL Combine next week.

But let's start with a little action, fellas.

Uh, it is not limited to the Miami of Ohio Red Hawks, which remain the last undefeated team in men's basketball, but, uh, and probably now includes a school from California.

Sacramento State announced on Monday that they were moving up to the FBS ranks this season to, uh, to join a league 2000 miles away.

Uh, another example of the, uh, pay for play of the conference variety is they'll take no league distributions, uh, and, and pony up nearly $18 million for a new home for their football team.

Producer Ken, I will lead with you.

What did you make of this latest bit of action?

Yeah, well, we did discuss last week how Sac State was trying to make their way into the Pac-12, would have probably been desperate to get into the Mountain West the way North Dakota State did.

So they're just trying to find some landing spot in FBS to then Whatever treasure chest they're building or whatever NIL funds they seem to have, they're just going to go all in on that.

And the MAC though, it's weird because as we saw, Northern Illinois just left, UMass is now a new member.

It's a different Mid-American Conference.

But clearly, when you're Sacramento State, they're just trying to get their foot in the door, understand that Definitively, they'll have the best NIL to probably work with in that conference.

But the travel part is really weird.

They're gonna pay for other people's, other teams' travels.

They're going to be just go all in in terms of not worrying about expenses.

I'm not sure, like the way we felt good about North Dakota State last week and then being a viable option as a Playoff contender down the road.

The MAC is the bottom.

If the Conference USA and the MAC are the two conferences that you really are gonna have to pull an out of conference victory or multiple non-conference victories to probably be in that playoff mix.

But I guess what I take the most out of it is desperation.

They were desperate to get in.

They're paying an upwards of, what, 20+ million when it's all said and done.

And I don't necessarily think they're gonna be a team we're discussing in the college football playoffs anytime soon, but they had their minds set on, we're an FBS football program, and whether it's the MAC, Conference USA, Mountain West, Pac-12, we're getting in somewhere and the MAC was willing to accept them.

I, I, I read it more from the desperation on the, on the max side, which has been traditionally like the, the conference of stability, the league that um doesn't want to shake things up, is kind of happy with its little carved out place in the state of college athletics, like, the fact that they felt obligated to To take the quick cash and line everybody's pockets a little bit, I think speaks to kind of the tenuous state of affairs throughout Group of Five and really throughout everybody except for the SEC and the Big 10.

And I don't know, I, I, I, I just, I, I don't know how we look big picture at a world where the, um, where the Mountain West is taking Northern Illinois, so we can have early time slot games, and the MAC is taking Sacramento State, so it can have, um, you know, a quick cash from Sacramento State paying them to be here, and then beyond that, you know, some late night inventory that they can, uh, sell the ESPN and say that this is a A stable or healthy ecosystem that we're in right now.

Like, none of these decisions make any sense, and I understand at least that this is a football only move, um, and all of these decisions make a lot more sense as football only moves than conferences as a whole, but There is a major kind of reshuffling of deck chairs on the Titanic energy to all of this, in my opinion, and I don't fault Sac State for doing it.

Um, I think it's very obvious that they do not view their future as being an FCS institution.

This is their path out of that.

Um, they can take their, uh, their roll of the dice, essentially , at 5 years in, in the MAC.

Hope it works, hope it parlays them into a more stable, more logical destination long term, but Man, it, it, it, it just feels like a very tenuous situation overall for, for, for where things are for everyone outside of the very top of college sports right now.

And I think, you know, at the, at the end of the day , this is a marketing exercise, you know, for Sacramento State, you know, and, and they, they've, they've kind of hinted at this, you know, look, this is about growing enrollment, uh, you know, a lot of talk about in terms of the schools themselves facing this enrollment cliff that is coming, uh, here in the next couple of years, and, uh, you know, they, they , they use this essentially as a, as a marketing expense, you know, I think if you look at the, kind of the, the, the P&L, this, this move does not make sense.

I mean, you're talking about, um, not just the $18 million plus, you know, the $5 million to, to join up FBS, um, you know, this is probably a 30+ million dollars dollar decision.

By Sacramento State to move up, you know, and, and they have been trying, uh, not just, uh, this year, but, uh, you know , in, in past years and probably would have been, uh, honestly landed in, in maybe the Mountain West or, or Pac-12 had they not kind of ruffled a few, uh, college presidents' feathers, uh, certainly some 80s feathers with, with how they've gone about it, but they've been aggressive and look, they, they, they found their home.

This is a, a five-year experiment for them, um, whether they go FBS independent after this, whether that keeps them, uh, around as, as a possible deal, you know, they were pretty clear in their release that this is a Kind of almost a, a, a 5-year time frame, uh, for Sacramento State.

And look, I, I, I, I will say it, uh, I, I don't, I don't mind the fact that uh we might get some, some action on Tuesday, Wednesday nights at 10:00 Eastern, uh, certainly for the degenerates out there, that, that's great news for some additional football and some new windows.

But, um, yeah, I mean, on, on its face, yeah, it is crazy that the Sacramento State on, on one coast of the country is joining the Mid-American Conference.

Uh, that, that makes no sense.

But hey, this is, this is college athletics, and, uh, we, we always follow the money.

Uh, you know, I, I think the extra, whether it's 500 million, a million, uh, in terms of the ultimate distribution that, uh, to a lot of these Maxwells, that, that means a lot.

And I think when you look at the actual overall expenditures of the athletic department, Sacramento State actually compares pretty favorably, um, you know, in, in terms of, uh, what they're, they're going up against in the MAC.

Um, obviously, uh, true, you know, in terms of the difference maker between kind of that upper crust, if you.

of, of FCS versus the lower tier of FBS, I, I don't honestly think there's much of a difference, you know, we, we've seen a lot of these Mac programs struggle, uh, moving forward.

So, I, I think it's, it's a fascinating experiment, you know, more, more than anything.

And, uh, you know, again, to, to Kevin, to your point, I mean, it does, it, it is insane on the surface, but, uh , at least we'll, we'll at least make sense of it, uh, as we move forward.

But, uh, plenty more to come.

I'm sure Pat, uh, when he gets back.

We'll have a few thoughts on, uh, another league stretching from coast to coast, but I, I do want to turn our attention a little bit more towards the actual basketball on, on the court a little bit, um, because that is that time of year and we got our first mid-season firing, uh, at, at a power conference school, Kansas State, cutting ties with Jerome Tang, most notably for cause, which I, I think, uh, was probably the eye-opening, uh, part of this move.

Uh, he, he threw the team under the bus a little bit, uh, a couple of weeks ago in terms of, uh, having a press conference.

The school kind of use that as some pretext, but more than anything, this, this could be the most expensive firing we've ever seen, uh, in men's basketball depending on what the ultimate number is on that buyout that's, uh, being negotiated right now.

As it stands, 18+ million, which would be the highest in, in college basketball history.

Kevin, how do you, how do you kind of see this, um, war of words, if you will, uh, between Jerome Tang and Kansas State playing out?

Yeah, well, number one, I would, is the, I believe the highest buyout by a public school.

Uh, there is some belief that Vanderbilt's Jerry Stackhouse decision was even more expensive, but yes, as far as we know, huge numbers, um, and a massive decision, I think at its core, right, like Jerome Tang spent so much of other people's money the last two years in NIL, um, and did so really ineffectively.

Like, disastrously so.

I mean, 2 years ago, they had one of the highest budgets, and not the highest budget in the country, spent it on essentially all front court players.

The mix never worked.

They were terrible, they were a huge disappointment, um, they were dysfunctional in a lot of ways, and I just don't think there was any sense that things changed.

Like, the response to that was not, let's change how we operate, let's change how we do business.

They changed where they recruited.

I mean, they went international a little bit, but they still pulled out the money guns, and quite frankly, they went internationally more than anything because their dollar was no good to the American transfer after what happened, right?

Like, it was, it was not a great situation.

They obviously kind of fall into PJ Haggerty, who is uh desperate for a home, and Kansas State had the money to spend, and it worked out that way, but They were, they, they, they were incoherent in a lot of regards and how to build rosters, and that in this era will get you fired very quickly.

Um, again, I, I think the for cause thing is ridiculous.

If anything, I thought his press conference was the best thing he did all year.

Like, I, I don't know how you can't walk into that room and not say some of the things he said.

If you embarrass yourself at home against Cincinnati, and he owns that too, he's the head coach, but like the players should own it too, right?

They absolutely should.

And so the idea that he brought disrepute to the institution, no, he, he brought disrepute to the institution by losing by 30 at home to Cincinnati.

Like let's, let's be very frank about what this is.

I expect him to get most, if not all of his money, but um.

Look, he, he, he earned this firing, um, quick trigger may it be, because at the end of the day, I don't think Kansas State's administration could trust in, in, in him to give him another $10 million crack at the apple or bite at the apple, excuse me, and I don't think the boosters were ready to write that check.

And when the boosters aren't ready to write that check, that means they're ready for a different check to write, and that buyout check, when whenever it gets written through the through the probate of the court system will will will certainly be an expensive one.

Yeah, what's wild about this is you start talking about buyouts for basketball.

For football, it's so commonplace.

It's almost like an afterthought when you see even mediocre programs.

But for basketball, there's not as many of these high-profile, you know, in-season firings that make everybody kind of question a buyout.

And when you're Kansas State as well, this isn't.

You know, one of the blue blood programs like a Kentucky or, you know, obviously, Mick Cronin's been in the news recently as well, like the UCLA where like those type of programs, they're in the news.

K-State, obviously, they made their run a couple of years ago and since then, it has not worked out.

But you have to also factor in the fact that He's gonna get most of his money, as you said, Kevin.

There doesn't seem to be any sort of cause outside of it was lousy basketball.

And if that's your claim and that's what you're trying to fight him on, good luck with that, and I hope he gets every penny because even though the incompetence on the court was a lot of his doing, that still doesn't mean that he shouldn't get the buyout if that's what you agreed upon contractually.

But going forward, you do wonder, and this is what you brought up, Kevin, is.

When you put so much resources into a team, and the coach, it's one thing to barely get by or, you know, not live up to your hype slightly, but when it's a complete failure, How are the boosters going to justify it?

How are they going to be able to say the following year, it didn't work last year, we're time to invest again.

That's going to be, you know, back in the day, the one year you're off, but then you bring in your recruiting class, you maybe go bring in a couple of transfers, and now you reload.

Now it is strictly, if the boosters don't have any confidence in the coach, how do you justify that guy returning, no matter what the buyout is?

And this is clearly That sign, and I think going forward, we're gonna see this more and more in that if the people cutting the checks are completely dissatisfied, there's no going back.

Well, the, and the other thing too that I think this, this should remind a lot of ADs out there, you know, if, if you're thinking about giving a guy an extension, like, just don't.

Like this is, and, and, you know, throwing good money after bad money, like, I mean, I, I know that's gonna be another topic of, of conversation for, for a lot of folks, especially amongst the boosters that, that are ponying up for a lot of these, not only these teams themselves, but also some of these extensions, but especially in a sport like basketball, and, and, you know, let's, let's face it, Kansas State, as, as Great a program as that can be, uh, you know, they, they, they also made a football change.

And, and I think that's obviously top of mind.

There are certainly some promises there towards the new staff in terms of what they could spend on, on their roster.

And, uh, you know, when you're kind of caught in that money crunch, we'll, we'll see this and I'm, I'm gonna be very curious to see how this impacts the kind of the buyout market itself.

If, if you're thinking about, uh, as an AD extending guy, maybe there's, there's some interest in, in your head coach, more, more than ever nowadays in basketball.

I, I think It's like, all right, go ahead.

Like, like, let's start calling those bluffs of agents and, and others out there.

All right.

You, you, you want to go to one of those Blue Blood jobs that are open, you know, by all means, uh, you know, try, try your luck because you can probably find a pretty good, uh, replacement level, uh, or even a value over replacement level, uh, coach at this point and , and spend some of that money that you would typically divert towards that coaching staff on your roster and probably get better results at this point.

But I, I do always think that Once you have that first kind of big move in, in the coaching market, it does kind of cause a number of other programs out there to say, all right, now, now, what are we going to do?

Uh, and I, I'm curious, Kevin, from your perspective, who else is out there is kind of feeling the heat, uh, on the basketball front and who has that hot seat?

Who, who's, who are some of the names to watch as well on the coaching, uh, carousel that hopefully, let's face it, will not come close to matching, uh, the, the, the breadth and depth that we saw on the, on the football side.

Yeah, I, I'd be shocked if it does.

Um, your, your point is 100% correct.

Um, first off, on extensions and bad money, right?

Like, Kansas State extended Jerome Tang after the Elite Eight.

Understandable.

It was an incredible first year, he was arguably the national coach of the Year.

They then amended his contract and upped his buyout substantially more after missing the NCAA tournament, because they got played by his agent pushing a narrative that was never true that he had a chance at the Arkansas job.

He had no chance.

He was never in the mix.

He was never a serious candidate at Arkansas.

And Gene Taylor got played into a decision that they could not afford, right?

Like, that is the reason we are, we are, we are playing this game that press conferences equal firings now, because Kansas State and its administration got spooked that Jerome Tang could leave them after missing the NCAA tournament, and gave him the world, right?

That that's the reality, those are the mistakes, and, and that's why I said, uh, I tweeted this like.

At its, at its core, like, if you cannot afford to pay the coach his money and you need to scramble together an investigation to fire him, uh, you're the one who probably shouldn't have their job, not the head coach.

So, uh, as far as the rest of the carousel, uh, yes, as you said, not as active as football, I would not expect, not a ton of big jobs, you know, I think there's some monitoring of the situation at Ohio State with, with Jake Deebler, if they missed the NCAA tournament, but got a huge win.

Um, Tuesday night against Ohio State, that's a big step.

You know, I think if they make the tournament, there's, there's no real chance of a move.

Um, you know, some retirements that could potentially be big jobs.

Tennessee with Rick Barnes is one people will watch, uh, Oregon with Dana Altman, although he has made it clear he does not want to retire.

Um, so, so how that would shake out if, uh, if things, uh , continue.

South will be, will be interesting to watch.

Um, Syracuse and Providence, um, and by all accounts, according to my sources are, are gearing up to make changes.

Uh, Red Autry and Kim English both in, in their 3rd years, it just, it just hasn't worked.

Um, Pittsburgh, uh, sort of a bubble carousel job at the moment.

Um, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of money.

It would take to get rid of Jeff Capel, but, uh, things kind of rapidly, uh, becoming untenuous there from, from, from what I've gathered.

Uh, Oklahoma, Porter Mosier very much on the hot seat with with a new AD coming in.

Uh, some guys don't want to, to ruffle, ruffle feathers too, too much right away.

Uh, I do not get the sense that that is the, the case in Norman, uh , would expect that job.

Uh, to, to be open.

Arizona State with Bobby Hurley feels like every year we're, we're down this rabbit hole, but, uh, I think he's running out of time.

His contract, um, is up at the end of the year, which is unique, and I, I don't think the results.

Warrant another year of this, um, and then also Boston College, another one to watch , um, some others that, that could swing, you know, Wake Forest, you hear a lot about, but my understanding is that Steve Forbes is safe pending and, you know, collapsed down the stretch.

Um, Memphis, I think, leans safe as well.

Um, so some good jobs, nothing, you know , elite.

Uh, and a lot of people really competing for the same candidates at its core.

Um, two elite mid-major names have sort of separated themselves from the pack.

Josh Shirts doing a phenomenal job at Saint Louis, uh, Jared Calhoun at Utah State, which has become sort of the coaching factory of, of the 2020s.

Um, you will hear both of them connected to a lot of these jobs, but from there, you know, there aren't as many movable high major names as there have been in the past couple of years.

Um.

So, a lot of it, it will get dictated by which coaches can win their conference tournaments and make a run, you know, I think you'll see, you'll hear Casey Alexander at Belmont, we've got a story at SI coming on on Thursday about him and the job he's done.

He, he's he's someone you hear about.

Uh, a lot of these excellent mid-major coaches, Travis Steele and, and, and , and the MAC, I think you could hear, uh, with the job he's done at Miami, Ohio, um, but yeah , it's, it's, it's not a great cycle of candidates, which I think adds to the lack of excitement about maybe moving, if you're on the, on the bubble about making a coaching change, that people aren't lining up for, for this crop of candidates outside of Shirts and Calhoun.

Which of those jobs would you think is the best?

Cause I, I mean, I just think of Syracuse, and I look at what Boeheim did, but the landscape now is so different where it's not the old Big East.

The ACC is seemingly, you know, as you mentioned, it's SEC, it's Big 10, and then everyone else.

And when you look at a job like Syracuse, there's no way 10 years ago.

So, I would not have said that's not one of the best 10 or 15 jobs in the country.

But now, when you look at it, is it a top 20 type of job or is it maybe kind of closer to that, like 30 or 40th type job because Boeheim was great, but seemingly, since then, they've not done much and even his later years, there wasn't much happening in their later ACC run with him.

Yeah, I, I, I don't think it's a truly top tier job, um.

For a lot of reasons.

Number one, just sort of administration uncertainty, um, AD on the way out, um, president on the way out, or chancellor, excuse me, I, I don't, I, I don't remember which, which term the leader gets, but even better, even better.

So, um, you know, administrative turnover, they've been slow on the NIL front.

They've been slow generally financially.

Boeheim always kind of worked on a sweetheart contract, and, uh, Red Autry is, is not super highly paid.

Like, the amount of investment it's going to take in a time where Dollars don't just fall from trees, is going to be significant.

But I do think you're right, Kent, that, like, there's an allure of the brand of the fan base, um, and, you know, I've, I've, I've been told that, you know, they have as good a chance as anyone in the, in the Josh shirt sweep sweepstakes, uh, and I think a lot of that's because of the brand and, and because of the impact of that.

But I think with the conferences the way they are, you know, Syracuse and Cincinnati are two super proud basketball programs, um, that You're, you're, you're still signing up to be a very mid-tier job in very difficult leagues, um, and quite frankly, in, in, in leagues that are behind the SEC and the Big 10 so substantially financially that, uh, it is hard to, to wrap your head around if you're a big name candidate being all in on one of those.

But I do think that Syracuse and CinC are probably the, the two most coveted, um, and then you'll see, you'll see what happens with With Oklahoma, with, with, with K-State, um, you know, Providence has money to spend in NIL and the Big East is, um, very interesting place to be at the moment, um, because on one hand, you don't have the, the, the cap to, to really deal with in terms of the CSC and, and, and navigating how to pay players.

It's easier to spend 10 million on a roster, but You know, when you talk to coaches around the country, it sounds like just about everybody's gearing up to spend that, and, and I think there's maybe questions long term about the financial stability of, of, and sustainability of spending that way in the Big East.

It's gonna be fascinating to, uh, keep track and, uh, you know, also, like you mentioned, you know, I think Memphis, uh, want to keep an eye on with , with Penny there, uh, an AD that didn't hire him and obviously some, some changeover in terms of those boosters there, uh, down in Memphis, given the disappointing results in a down American too, it's gonna be very interesting to see.

How that plays out.

But, uh, you know, the good news is the actual action on the court, uh, this, this past week was, it was pretty good.

Number of top 1010, 10 teams have, have changed over.

Uh, Kevin, I know you were, you were there, uh, watching Michigan, uh, play Purdue.

I will end up seeing them this weekend, uh, as they, uh, headed to, uh, to Washington DC to play Duke.

Uh, I will, I will open up to you guys and, uh, you can go ahead and lead on this one.

in, in your mind, at this point in the season, who's still your favorite, uh, right now to kind of cut down the nets in Indy as we get closer to March?

Yeah, I did joke last week about how we didn't give Houston some love and then obviously, Houston got a nice win, but then they fell the other day.

I would still, maybe they're in that same mindset of like when, when you looked at it, Virginia gets upset as a one seed, people write off Tony Bennett, and then the next year he wins the title, and then you look at Purdue, they lose as like a one seed and then come back and make it all the way to a national championship game.

Maybe Houston is.

Still that team that's going to be there when all is said and done and find a way.

One team I, I would still favor is Arizona.

I do think, as I said last week, I think Arizona is the type of team that has everything it takes to win the title, but it is starting to get crazy just how much Michigan just, just steamrolls people left and right, and I would not discount that at all.

And, uh, and then, I know I mentioned last week as Shire has a lot to prove with Duke, but you start looking at Duke and you start saying, why couldn't it be them, but I would go to Arizona right now as that team that would still be my favorite, but probably the Houston Cougars would be right there too.

I don't want to discount what they're capable of.

Yeah, I, I, I, I think it's Michigan, um, maybe it's a prisoner of the moment, um, being there, but just their size and length is so overwhelming, uh, the physicality, it, it, it's just teams that are, you just notice a different level of tentativeness that teams play with against them, driving it to the rim, trying to finish around Mara, um, you know, they're gettable when you can force them into a half court game, um, they're not unstoppable.

But their talent is you think would give them the best shot at making it a half court game.

Because so much about the tournament is matchup based, and sometimes you just know, you don't go up against that team that is your bad matchup.

So , I, I think Illinois in a lot of respects is probably the most equipped in, in two regards.

Number one, they do something called tagging up on the offensive glass, that's like an incredibly powerful tool to keep teams out of transition with the way that they, with, with the way that they offensive rebound.

It, it, it, it, it really makes it difficult to run, which is where Michigan's so great.

And then the other thing is to score on Michigan, the most effective thing is if you have bigs that can space the floor, because you can pull Mara and you can pull Lindeborg, and you can pull Marez Johnson away from the rim, and Illinois with their shooting bigs creates a ton of mismatches in that regard.

And then you have the elite guard in Wagler, who can, can really create, and so, um, I, I, I love this Illinois group.

I've been a believer for, for quite some time, but I do think as you start to look at the other top teams, Illinois matches up really well because they have two really dynamic ball handlers in Wagler and Boswell.

They have the shooting bigs that can pull people away from the rim, which is important, especially against both Michigan and Arizona with how they play.

And then you stack on top that you have this big variant swing of the shooting from their bigs and those guys being able to take over a game, um, with a hot shooting night.

I think that's a pretty potent recipe and why I am a pretty huge believer in what Illinois can do, uh, here in the next six weeks or so.

Yeah, we'll, we'll see if, uh, obviously, Michigan has to go, still, still has to go to Illinois.

We'll see if Stojakovic can be, be healthy for that matchup.

That is kind of the one team, especially with, with how old they are, in Illinois that, that I do circle and it.

It'll be fun to see if we can get that matchup, if we can get hopefully an Arizona team as well.

Uh, you know, can I, I know you bring up, I, I think with Coa Pete being out this week, uh, you know, with that injury, that actually might help Arizona long term.

I, I think just in terms of the You know, they, they can match up so many different ways, uh, the Wildcats, you know, seeing them up close in person, uh, a couple of weeks ago against BYU, um, you know, they have a number of ways to beat you.

They, they, they, you know, and I think that probably might be their biggest saving grace in terms of the tournament, in terms of what Tommy Lloyd can kind of throw at you this week is, um, you know, you, you, you want to go big and, and play in the half court, uh, you know, they can go that way.

You want to go out and run, they've got those guys that can go out and run .

And, uh, so many different lineup combinations that, uh, they can rely on.

Plus, you know, I, I, I think a team that has, has grown well, you know, despite, uh, playing some of, a lot of those freshmen, you know, they, they've just meshed well.

I, I, I don't think, uh, you know , we'll, we'll certainly see on Saturday, you know, with, with, with Duke.

Um, I, I don't think this Duke team is, is as good as last year's edition, but, uh, when, when you got a guy like Cameron Boozer who is just carrying them, uh, the defense has, has definitely been much improved, um, from even what we saw last year in terms of Certainly some of the numbers , um, but that's a team that maybe not cutting down the nets, but, uh, could definitely get to Indianapolis.

So, I, I think it's, it's pretty wide open, you know, this year.

And, and the other thing that is also wide open, um, maybe we'll, we'll see is the National Player of the Year race.

Uh, it definitely is, is heating up.

Uh, in this week's magazine, I wrote about AJ De Ponsa, uh, certainly one of the candidates out of BYU.

Uh, we'll see, certainly, he's gonna have to carry a lot more of the load now for the Cougars with Riggie Saunders tearing his ACL.

Um, you know, Cameron Boozer, obviously, he, he's looking pretty good, uh, to make it back to back for, for Duke freshman, but you got Derek Peterson out there , you got, uh, you know, you got Wagler, you got a ton of guys, especially freshmen, and, and, and Kevin, I know, uh, you, you keep your eye on this, uh, for, for SI.

com.

How do you see that play, the player of the Year race, uh, playing out, and who can maybe join your kind of top three, that, that they're pretty well established at this point.

Yeah, you know, I think Cam is in, in great shape, just because the production is so elite and, and they've won, and I think when you look at the other top teams in the country, for the most part, their contributions are, are so kind of egalitarian, right?

Like, even in Iowa State, who's been phenomenal, you know, Josh Jefferson is number 2 on the 10 pound Player of the Year metric, which is a pretty good, good marker of kind of like overall statistical impact.

But I think if you ask people, hey, like, Who's, who's Iowa State's most important player?

Some people would say Momcilovich and his shooting, or Tamon Lipsey and his, his defense, right?

Like , they, they have a big 3, you know, Florida has a big 3, Arizona has a big 3 or 4.

So, um, you know, Yael doesn't put up the numbers at Michigan because they have all these guys, and so, for Duke, like the clear hierarchy of it's my team and everybody else contributes around me, and, you know, we're we're, we're as good as anybody, I think that that's made it, you know, allowed them to pull away.

Um, AJ's numbers speak for themselves and As, as you said, I do think in some ways it's an opportunity for him with, with Saunders out.

I mean, his usage is gonna be off the charts, and if he goes for, you know, 2 or 340 point games and BYU wins and starts to kind of regain the momentum, you know, maybe he becomes a more serious contender with, with Boozer.

Um, and then I, I, I do think that, you know, Keaton Wagler should be in the conversation.

Um, maybe this is just sort of prisoner of the moment and Uh, the, the journalist in me loves the story, and it's truly, I mean, there's, there's no better story than, than, than his emergence, but I mean, he is playing astronomically high usage basketball, doing it unbelievably efficiently, and he's averaging like 22 points a game in Big 10 play.

Um, and it's ridiculous what he's done, uh, on an elite team.

So, uh, I do think it will be Boozer, um, but rounding out that kind of first team All-America group is, there's a, there's a lot of questions and a lot of great players on really good teams, so I'm fascinated to see how, how the voters end up kind of creating the hierarchy there.

Definitely, it should be a pretty fun finish.

Now, uh, before we get into some of the NFL combine talk and, and letting you go, Kevin, uh, I, I did want to bring up, uh, it's always fun at the end of, uh, the episode to kind of go to the, the point after.

I don't know how, uh, our, our, our fearless leader, Pat, uh, comes up with these things, but, uh, I was googling around.

And, uh, you know, as good as the top 4 matchups that we're gonna see, uh, in college basketball this weekend, there's also the Florida Man Games, fellas.

I, I don't know if you took a, took a look at this, um, uh, it's happening on Saturday there in Tampa, and it is what you could expect.

I don't know if you guys got a chance to, to look at this, but Uh, the number of activities, um, let's just say it's, it's definitely, uh, fits the name Florida Man Games.

So I'm kind of curious from you guys, uh, what, what would be the one event, uh, that, at this Florida Man Games that you guys would, uh, would, would be down to at least do?

What would it, would it be a taser tag?

Uh, we, we, we got, uh, the evading arrest obstacle course.

Um, there's a, uh, hurricane, uh, prep party, if you will, brawl.

Uh, there's, there's a number of different things, uh, you guys can pull up the website.

Anything floats your boat, uh, that would be at least doable on your end.

Yeah, somebody that's lived in Florida for a few years when I was in college and experienced a pretty devastating hurricane, I would say I don't want to relive anything dealing with a hurricane.

I do think the evading police chase sounds very Florida and sounds very fun because You're never gonna be able to kind of do anything like that in your normal life.

You know, there's even talks about like with alligators trying to like, throw an alligator through a drive-through window as part of it and just crazy things like that.

I feel like that would be the most fun in the moment, just because you're going up against the challenge that you never want to be in, in real life.

If you're evading police in a real vehicle, your life is probably close to over, or it's certainly gonna change for the worse, but you can kind of get away with it here, so that would be mine because it fits Florida.

It fits kind of a fun few minutes.

I think you'd have fun doing it.

And then when it's done, you're like, OK, I've been there, done that, but I definitely don't wanna have any chance of that making it into my real life whatsoever.

And like I said, hurricanes, anything like that, anything in a swamp, I'll pass on all of that.

So, I, I'm on the website here, and there is, in addition to the, the big events, there is the chaos carnival with rides and attractions for um the average Joe that that shows up, and one of them is uh human beer pong, um, where two competitors climb into giant inflatable ping pong balls, uh, and have to stumble their way into one of three kiddie pools filled with booze.

Um, the, the, the offensive player charges and the defensive player tries to knock them off their feet.

Um, I, I think, I think I would dabble in that.

I might need to have a few, few beverages before I, before I do, but I think everybody's having a few before.

It's not, not, not an event for the sober.

No, no, definitely not.

But, uh, definitely, uh, you know, fits, fits the, fits the bill.

I, I, I think the, uh, they have the, not a mechanical bull, but a mechanical alligator.

I, I think I might go for that, uh, if, if, if need be, but.

Uh, you know, definitely one of those unique things that, uh, you know what, is, is only gonna happen in a, a certain state in the union.

So, also, the FAQ, when you read it, it's talking about like, do you need to be an athlete, and flat out they said you do not need to be an athlete.

It's not required whatsoever.

I do think the alcohol is probably basically required, meaning, as you said, if you showed up sober, you probably can't compete, is my guess.

But being an athlete, they probably almost look down upon it as a really good athlete would show up and try to win one of these events.

Yeah, I, I might have to, uh, I might have to ask the editors for next year.

Um, you know, this is a sporting event, if, if you will, and just for really for the people watching, uh, to, to go to this event might be, uh, might be worth it.

But, uh, uh, Kevin, thanks for joining us.

Uh, we will let you hop off, uh, before that, uh, Kent and I are gonna stay on.

We got a guest, uh, special guest here on others receiving votes.

We're gonna talk some NFL Combine.

I know there was a lot of hoops talk to get through, but we will chat.

Uh, about the combine, some of the things that are coming up next week in Indianapolis.

So stay tuned right after this break and we will go to that conversation.

All right, it's almost time for the NFL Combine to grace us with its presence, which always feels like the perfect time for a crossover event for college football fans and NFL fans and with the draft in Pittsburgh this year.

I thought, who better to help us break down a few of the big names to know next week than Kareem Kassim , the vice president over at Team.

Works and somebody who's been in the front office this time of year, uh, for the Steelers and the Jaguars, among others.

Uh, Karim, thanks for having, uh, thanks for jumping on with us.

And you guys at Teamworks have, have a ton of data on a lot of the college players that everybody is going to be discussing, um, uh, certainly at both levels of the draft.

And I think a lot of folks will be focusing on, obviously, the quarterbacks and, you know, who's gonna run fast in that 40.

And I know from your perspective, we, we know Fernando Mendoza is likely to go number one overall, but uh it might be a big question in terms of, uh, going into Indianapolis, who might have that shot at being the next guy off the board.

Uh, I'm kind of curious, from your perspective and, and what you've seen from the analytics and, and the numbers and, and the film as well.

Who, who might be that next signal caller taken, excuse me, uh, in, in the draft?

Yeah, thank you.

I, I'm super fascinating time.

Really, really excited to be here.

Thank you, Brian.

Um, as you mentioned, I'm a VP of intelligence at Teamworks.

We build software for, for sports teams and we work with nearly every team in FBS.

We work with every NFL team.

Um, one of the software tools, the stuff I work on specifically are, are scouting tools.

And so we take, uh, all 22 video, we apply computer version, turn it into data.

We do a lot of quality control, and then we have a set of models that, that takes that data.

And when you, when you have data that's coming from film that way, it's kind of like you're letting the computer see, see how players move, right?

So, uh, beyond how fast they are, how, how quickly they change directions, how violently they collapse the pocket, how they limit space.

In the run game.

And so we have a lot of metrics.

And with the, with the quarterback specifically, like you said, we, you know, we were talking the other day, it seems clear who the number 1 guy is.

Uh, the, the number 2 is, is a more difficult question.

And, and our numbers were high on, on Mendoza coming out of Cal.

We saw, um, you know, we saw the accuracy , uh, we saw the arm strength there, and those are, you know, the, the two most important variables for any quarterback, especially transferring to the NFL.

We'll say, you know, as an aside, as a running athlete, his speed, his acceleration, his change of direction.

You know, around average, maybe a little bit below average for an FBS quarterback, but, but solid , you know, it, it's ugly, but, but he gets up to speed and, and, and he can, he can move fast.

And then who's second, you know, part of, part of why I think it's such a challenge to say who it is, because it, it could have been Dante Moore, um, and it could have been Trinidad Chambliss potentially, and maybe it could have been, could have been Manning, but, but none of those guys are, are coming out this year.

Um, it seems like most likely it's, it's Ty Simpson.

I, I'd say, like, our, our numbers.

There's not much to go on, you know, so he's, he's one-year starter.

He doesn't quite have prototypical size.

We have him listed at 62, and, you know, we saw Diego Pavia measure a little bit, a little bit shorter at the, at the Senior Bowl.

Um, and I think that's, that's a little bit of context for, he, he's a great running athlete, you know, much better than Mendoza that way.

I think when you get under 6'2, you kind of need to have it.

That's sort of necessary.

It's not like a nice to have anymore.

Um, but we, we still have some.

Questions on his accuracy.

If you'd asked me halfway through the year, halfway through the season, we probably would have been a little bit higher on him.

And that's kind of how, how the team went as well.

The other guy that I think is interesting is, is probably Carson Beck.

He's, he's not that old for a guy who's played, uh, a lot of college football.

He's only 23.

Um, he's certainly not, uh, the, the running athlete that, that Ty Simpson is.

I don't think he'll run at the combine.

If he ran at the combine, he'd almost Certainly be the slowest quarterback there.

Um, but he has the size to be a successful pocket passer.

Uh, you know, question from our metrics is that we saw him, uh, with, with higher arm strength a couple of years ago, and he had that surgery.

So I think for, for NFL teams looking at him, it's gonna be a question of like, can he get that arm strength back if, if we didn't see it on tape in Miami, like, what, where is that gonna go?

Because if he can get that arm strength back, you know, we were talking about him as a potential first-round pick a couple of years ago, maybe he can get back there.

And Karim, whenever you look at the NFL, speed always stands out.

It always becomes one of the biggest storylines in Indianapolis at the combine.

Who are some of the guys that are going to test really well and stand out in Indianapolis with their separation, with their speed, and really start to make the scouts salivate a little bit at their potential in the NFL?

Those, those 40 times, they, they're, you know, prominent in every draft room.

They're, they're important.

I'll, I'll say before we get into it that we're not trying to predict 4, like, we don't, we don't try to predict 40 times.

We're, we, we call it a game speed 40 of like, if this player ran a 40 in, in, in pads and, um, and equipment on grass, starting from a football stance, we're looking more at, at that part.

So, I'm, I'm projecting a little bit to, to who's gonna be best in the 40.

Um.

I think the player in, at the combine that's gonna run the fastest, I think easy, easy bet is Brendan Thompson out of Mississippi State.

Um, he's a smaller guy, um, but he has a sprinter background.

I was looking it up the other day.

Some say 10-2, I think probably more, he ran like a 10-4.

100 m , fast, fast either way.

Um, you know, one of the fastest players in college football this year.

Uh, I've heard that, uh, he's planning to break the combine record.

I'm not sure he can do that, but, um, I think he can run in the 42s.

He is, he's just a, a really fast, fast human.

Fast human.

That, that is the nature of the combine, right?

Uh, you know, and, and it, it's always a fun time for, for a lot of college football fans because, you know, it, it's NFL teams discovering, uh, a lot of, you know, a lot of guys that, uh, they, they frankly saw a lot of, on Saturdays who outside of maybe the, the first round, who are some of the sleepers in your mind, uh, to maybe keep an eye on as we go into Indianapolis?

Um, so I wanna mention one more 40 before we get into it.

I think there's, there, there's a group of, of , of guys that, that we have around a 4-4, and I, the, the one I'm most excited to watch is probably Tayle Green, quarterback out of Arkansas State.

I, I think a lot of NFL teams are gonna be asking him if he's willing to play other positions at, at.

Uh, you know, on Sundays, um, I don't know that he's got like the, the accuracy or the arm strength to play quarterback, but, but he could run a 4-4, he could run in the 4 3s, and at 66, 235.

That's, that, you know, that, that's wild to think about.

I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing him run.

Yeah, I mean, you know, just, just to interrupt you real quick.

I mean, to me, you know, it was funny.

I was talking with somebody about like Terrell Pryor, you know, for a couple of years ago.

I mean, he had a 1000 yard season as a receiver.

Obviously, kind of a similar build, tall guy, lanky, but also could run pretty fast.

Uh, he, he, he definitely turned a lot of eyes there at the Senior Bowl and, and I, I, I think he's gonna be definitely one of those fascinating kind of day three type of guys that I, I'm I'm sure NFL fans, when, when, when they, when they get to those, those grades, I'm, I'm sure somebody's gonna say, hey, we, we can take a chance on him, especially after we saw, you know, the Seahawks a couple of years ago.

They picked Jalen Milroe, more of a prototypical guy that you want to develop, uh, you know, fascinating number of players like that.

But, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll let you continue with some of those other sleepers, but he, he definitely is one of those guys that kind of sticks out, uh, after we saw him on, on.

there for Arkansas, yeah, yeah, and, and Pryor, um, beat us with the Raiders when I was with the Steelers, so a little bit of sore spot for, for me and for Kent maybe, um, well, here's what his last high school loss was against my high school just to throw it out there.

There you go.

I didn't lose many games in high school, but he killed me in basketball.

I'll put it that way.

I played against him and it wasn't too fun.

Tremendous athlete.

Absolutely.

Um, Brennan Thompson, I don't know, you know, guy who's gonna run the fastest.

I'm not sure if he qualifies as a sleeper.

Um, he's a smaller guy, having worked in the NFL and I'm, you know, a smaller guy.

I've been told many times it's a big man's game.

I believe it.

You know, I see those guys, it's tough, but there are a bunch of receivers his size that have made it.

The NFL that are productive.

Um, Tank Dell, Tes Johnson, um, Rasheed Shaheed's not much bigger .

Calvin Austin in Pittsburgh.

Um, we kind of see him similar to Tank Dell.

I'm not sure he's, he's super shifty, super twitchy, maybe not quite Tank Dell that way, but, uh, much faster in terms of long speed and, and, and probably a little bit bigger.

Um.

Couple other names to throw out.

Um, Ja'Darian Price, I don't know if Ja'Darian Price qualifies as a sleeper cause he, he's, he's kind of getting mocked as a second-rounder frequently now, uh, which is, which is amazing for, for a backup.

And we don't think that he's Jeremiah Love at all.

Um, and, and there's obviously some projection when you're, when you're talking about a guy who Hasn't carried load the same way.

Um, but, uh, I don't know between them who will run faster.

Probably Love.

He's got that top gear, but Price is plenty big, plenty big enough.

He, I think he'll probably run into the 4 or 5s.

Uh, our models love his run ability, his ability to sort of really take what's blocked to make that one cut, attack soft spots, and, and really go.

Uh, and, and there's certainly some other backup running backs that have, that have done well in the NFL in the past.

So there's ability as a kick returner factor in because I know with Price as a kick returner, he really excelled.

Does that add another element that if you draft him, not only are you getting a potential 1 or #2 back, but you can also use him in special teams where he's already shown that ability.

Yeah, absolutely.

I, I think for, for anyone that you're not drafting in the 1st round, maybe even like the first half of the 1st round, like, where are they gonna be on special teams is an important question.

And, and for him to be like, you know, potentially a difference maker, and like with a clear position there for a team that has that need, absolutely, it's a, it's a big deal.

Yeah.

Um, one other name I'll give you, uh, is, uh, Nadame Tucker, uh, out of Western Michigan, kind of transferred from Houston.

I, you know, so I'm, I'm not in a, a, a draft room, uh, this time of year, and there might be some character there, you know, I'm not sure exactly the, the conditions under which he left Houston.

On the defensive line, maybe that's OK, you know, like, no one accused Jaylen Carter of being kind, uh, ever.

So, um, maybe a little of the attitude is OK, but, um, Western Michigan won the MAC.

They won the MC with their, their defense, and he was the best player, you know, 10 sacks, 62 pressures.

We love his ability to collapse the pocket, really get to the quarterback.

We have a model that, that treats the pocket as, as like a surface, and it looks at how much is each player deforming that surface.

And so what it can do is really Um, isolate one pass rusher's contribution in a way that, you know, sacks depend on who's on the other side, it depends on who the quarterback is, it depends on what the coverage is behind, but we can isolate a little bit better, and, and he really stands out that way.

But he's also a strong run, uh, run, run defender, um, had a nice showing at the Senior Bowl, uh, strip sack was, was, you know, a good player in that game versus a higher level of competition.

And then in terms of you mentioned, just the ability to get to the quarterback.

You look at the Super Bowl, the difference was Seattle was able to rush for, get pressure, that made Drake May's job miserable for 3.5 hours.

When you look at this draft class and those edge rushers, I know there's not a A lot of depth in certain positions in this draft, but it does look like that defensive end position stands out.

Who are some of those top end guys and how deep is this position in terms of value and guys that you can get in day 2, day 3, that you think will be immediate impact players on the next level.

I mean, I think there's, there's, there is, there are a lot of talented players kind of at the top of that, um, that edge class this time.

And like you said, you know, we saw it in the Super Bowl, it may be the second most valuable position in, in NFL football.

There, there are 4 guys making 40 million a year now.

Um, and one of, one of the, the, the top guys, we're seeing them getting mocked as high as 2nd overall.

Um, David Bailey is the strongest by our numbers, um.

You know, maybe not, falls a little short of, like, um, built in the lab to be an edge rusher.

Like, I, I don't think he's perfect, but he does do everything well, and, and we have him as the best pass rusher in, in, in that draft, based on that same model I mentioned, uh, previously .

He can get after the quarterback.

He's a great athlete.

He'll, he'll run well, um, and he's a good tackler.

He's solid in the run game.

It might not be his calling card, but you don't, you know, our Uh, our run blocking highlights, had, had several plays where he was left unblocked on the backside of a play, and he'll, he'll chase a lot of running backs down, which is, which is amazing to see.

Um, so he's probably our number one.

You got, you know, you got Ruben Bain, um, probably the best D-line in, in football in Miami, and he was the best pass rusher there.

Um, Falk out of Auburn.

Arbel Reese is being talked about.

I think Arbel Reese is a really interesting one.

I think there's some question about where he'll play, uh, super athletic, um, he'll run the fastest 40 in that group, probably at the combine, I'd say.

I don't think he's the best pass rusher in the group, you know, like, if you, if you ask me who's gonna have a double jit sack season.

In the NFL, I would take Bailey over Reese, but Reese does a lot of other things as well.

He's only, he's only, you know, on passing plays, half the time he's dropping.

Um, so unlike others, like he's, he's doing a lot of different things.

Uh, he drops into coverage and he still put up 6 sacks this year.

So, you know, another potentially top 10 pick there.

Uh, when it comes to like the analytics and, and, uh, I do wanna get into a little bit uh in terms of the college side with, with what you guys do, but, uh, uh, when, when it comes to some of the analytics and kind of the draft process in general, how would you say that's kind of changed as front offices kind of become, uh, a little bit more open, I, I guess, to looking at some of the numbers, looking deeper into some of the numbers, looking a little bit beyond just, uh, turning over some of the film to some of the coaches and saying, you know, who, who do you like?

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it has changed.

And, and for a couple of different reasons.

So, you know, when I was with the Steelers, I, I was reading in every draft meeting.

So like, even, you know, going back to 2015, uh, in that draft class, like, everyone was paying attention to the numbers then.

And, and what I, I think two things have changed.

One, there's just way more numbers.

So that tracking data, understanding where college players are 10 times a second, like, we didn't, we didn't have that 10 years ago.

Uh, you know, that's much.

Newer.

So what you can do with box score stats, what you can do with play by play stats is a small fraction of what you can do with, you know, knowing where every player is at, at all times.

And, and so like, there's just so much more information that you can, you can glean about these players and how they move statistically.

And then, and then I think the integration is a little bit tighter now as well, where you're seeing, you know, whereas before, it might be part of the process right at the end.

Now you're seeing More and more scouts, college and pro, use analytics as a tool from the beginning.

And, you know, this time of year when I was with the Steelers, I'd be looking forward to the combine, because it'd be my first chance to get like an objective measurement of a player's speed so that I could put into my model.

Um, but we've been looking at these objective measures of player speed for, for many months now.

Still looking forward to going to the combine, talk to our, you know, our partners, but, um, that integration is, is a little bit tighter and you have teams.

Using stats to discover who to watch and, and doing it earlier in the season.

And, uh, for an NFL scout, their, their job's gotten a lot harder with, with the changes in college football as well with transfers.

There's, there's a lot of guys that are gonna jump out and be in a new situation, and maybe you didn't expect them to be draftable, but all of a sudden, they're on a new team and a new scheme, and, and they are, and, and, and our numbers are sort of part of the, can be part of the solution to identifying those, those guys early on.

Well, you know, you, you mentioned new teams and new schemes.

You, you do a ton of work with, with a lot of college GMs nowadays as well.

Uh, we just wrapped up the, the, the transfer portal.

Who, who maybe caught your eye on, on more of the college side in terms of the roster building and, and who, who maybe did a pretty good job in, in the portal this year?

I, you know, we, we, I, I sent you a note right after the, the portal finished, and, and I said Soresby was our favorite quarterback, um, that, that went, and I think, um, A lot of Texas teams did well in the portal.

Uh, I, I, I was gonna walk back a little bit on Soarsby though, cause I, I, you know, looking at it a little bit more, I wanted to give, um, Drew Messinmaker a little bit credit, very different type of player.

I think it's not the runner that Soarsby is, but, um, you know, a lot of great arm strength, great accuracy, um.

More of that pocket passer type, but, but could be a, a, a real weapon at , at OK State.

And then, um, LSU, you know, Lane Kiffin, got to give him credit as well.

Sam Levitt, looking back at it, we didn't like him as much this year, and, and we got to go back one year, but he had that foot injury.

It sounded like it was lingering before he, um, got pulled this year.

So, like, if, if they get 2024, Sam Levitt, I think he could be a weapon for LSU.

I, I know producer Kent will also ask about, uh, about his, his Hurricanes as well.

Uh, so, so I will turn that over to him.

You know, what do you think about Mensah and kind of the impact?

I mean, clearly, Miami's been doing it in the portal with the quarterbacks.

You already touched upon some of their draft prospects.

But what about a guy like Mensah where you look at him, he was at Tulane, stepped up, went to the ACC, won with Duke there, and now he's going to the runner-up in Miami.

How do you see him and his 2026 campaign as it's about to start in Miami?

We have really strong numbers on Mensa.

I, I, I just held off when I, when I mentioned sort of like, here are the guys that could have been the 2nd pick, and, and, um, I mentioned Chambliss and, and, and more.

I, I had Mina on the list, and I looked at him like, I don't think he's quite that, but, uh, but I think he's like an incredible transfer get from Miami.

You know, I think he can be, he can be really good in that, that offense.

And one other question I do wanna ask you because I think that when you look at the draft right now and you look at NFL teams, look at a guy like Eamon Warri for Seattle, Kyle Hamilton for the Ravens, and then there's a guy, Sonny Stiles, that's very similar.

He do it all kind of nickelback, linebacker, safeties, you can bring them on the edge.

How do you guys go about profiling players that are unique like that where Kyle Hamilton Clearly he was one of the best players in this draft, but yet he fell to the Ravens.

Eamon Warri seems to be one of the best.

He fell a bit.

Is it going to become routine that guys like that now are gonna get drafted a bit more properly, knowing how versatile they are and how the NFL currently is kind of scheming defensively to make guys like that be a true Swiss Army knife where a few years ago, teams seemingly probably weren't valuing them as much.

It's, it's a real challenge to evaluate these guys, both statistically, and I think as a scout, if you, if you're not sure what position they're going to play in, um, even, even if you know that they're great athletes and great football players, and partly is like, at some point, you have to decide, like, they're going to be in your building, and they're going to be in a room, and there's going to be a question of whose room they're going to be in, and watching tape, you know, talking about scheme, talking about the opposing offense that they're, that they're facing.

So You kind of have to decide at some point.

Um, when I was at the Steelers, one of the things I tried to do is put all defensive players on a spectrum, so that, um, you know, I found if I, if I was talking to scouts about a player, and, and I had him as an outside linebacker, and then he got moved to end, if I'm saying something completely different about him, like, my models look silly as well.

So try to get it on a continuum from, you know, nose tackle to like pure cover corner and like think about.

People, uh, about players within that spectrum.

Um, but it is, it is really difficult.

You can see, you can see the athleticism, our numbers, see the athleticism.

Sometimes our, our, our numbers on athletic traits are really strong, but our, our numbers on football abilities like pass rush, they have a little bit of trouble.

You know, they, our, our models had a little trouble with Arvel Reese, who plays like, not quite a pure edge role because he drops back.

And so the model.

He's not sure exactly what he's doing, can see the athlete, but, but can get confused there a little bit.

It's, it's still a difficult thing.

I think, you know, teams are focusing a lot of their time on that , um, because there are these players that, that play that star position, that play that nickelbacker position.

You, you, you need someone there, you know, that's, that's the base defense now.

Um, if you can get a guy that can wear a green dot and be in the middle of the defense and play 3 downs, that's super, super valuable.

Yeah, it is.

And, uh, you know , that's what makes the draft, you know, fascinating for, for a lot of us, not only watching at home but uh certainly are even involved, uh, at the NFL teams and, and certainly at the college level.

And, uh, Crim, thank you so much for joining us.

Hopefully, that the weather in Indianapolis will be as nice as it was for you as it was last year and as well as with the draft in Pittsburgh.

Thank you so much, Brian and Ken.

Nice to be on with you guys.

Absolutely.

All right.

Well, that is others receiving votes.

We will, uh, catch you again next week where we will also continue discussing the, uh, NFL Combine, everything going on there in Indianapolis, plus all the latest and greatest going on in college football and the rest of college sports.

I'm Brian Fisher, producer Kent, Kevin Sweeney, and everybody joining us here on the podcast.

Thank you so much, and we will catch you again next week.