Puck's John Ourand on NFL's Media Rights Future

All right.

Joining me now, SI Media podcast regular, even though he hasn't been on in several months, but we read him in Puck, at least I do.

I love what he does in Puck.

And no one, knows the business side of things better than him, John Oran.

John, how's it going?

Jimmy, great.

I, I just wanna give you a quick , uh, a shout out, you know, I host my own podcast too, so like, gen generally I take a look and I, uh, at who your guests are, and they're people I've thought of and people I've had and Uh, most recently you had Ben Koo on from Awful announcing, and that was one time I was like, what an inspired choice.

I, I, that was one I wish that, that I had had.

And I thought it was interesting too, because what, what he's done at Awful announcing, it's every single talent in, in sports media reads it.

Uh, uh, a lot of friends go to it.

The social that they do is really good.

I, I, I just thought.

I never thought of getting Ben on the pod.

And like when I saw him on yours, I was like, oh, nice job to you.

I appreciate that.

And Ben was on last week.

If anyone missing wants to, want, wants to listen to it.

I, I, with football over now, the NFL over, I want to try to sort of go a little out of the box and, and , and book, you know, someone like that because during the season, it's always, you know, Buck and Aikman and Nance and, Um, Greg Olson and Iron Eagle, etc.

etc.

you know, we'll have March Madness here in a few weeks, but I wanna try to maybe get a little more creative with the bookings, and I thought Ben would be a perfect guy since, you know, I never had him.

And like you said, if you're in this world, you're following awful announcing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, the, the very rarely if I'm like, oh, I wish I had thought of that, but that's, uh, that was one of them.

I was like, oh, that was a good one.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Um, all right, there's been a lot.

I want to get into a lot of this NFL stuff, um, But I'm gonna do one thing before that just cause like, it just as a quick thing here.

Can you give me , cause I don't, I'm not smart enough to follow it and the listeners.

What is the latest, and if you want to maybe follow it up with like how it affects sports fans, with Paramount and Netflix both trying to purchase, I guess, Warner Brothers Discovery, which is Turner Sports.

Where do we stand with that?

But, but I, I, I will stop giving you, uh, compliments, uh, as we go on, but that, that's, I, I listen to you enough.

That's what I always describe as your like Colombo type question.

Like I, I don't know enough about that.

Tell me what I, I can't fake it.

Like I can't be like, oh, well, the hostile takeover and I know there's government stuff involved and I don't know, but who, and I wanna know, at the end of the day, if Netflix buys Warner Brothers Discovery or if Paramount buys it, what, what does it mean for the average Joe Blow Schmoe sports fan?

You know, not a ton, really.

Uh, so, so if, if, uh, Paramount buys Warner Brothers, uh, uh, ends up getting, uh, Warner Brothers Discovery, they're gonna take everything and then you're gonna see sort of a combination of CBS Sports and, and, uh, TNT Sports.

Uh, but I can't imagine that they're gonna merge both of those.

They'll still have TNT and TruTV and TBS, and those will still have the, the games that, that will be on.

And if Netflix gets it, Netflix has said, we'll see what happens, uh, as it, uh, moves on, but Netflix has said that they want to, uh, they only are interested in like the studio and HBO Max, and that they aren't interested in the, the cable channels.

And so then you would end up with, with a situation.

Uh, like we just saw with Versant, where NBC got rid of its cable channels and, and now you have Golf Channel and USA, you know, which has some sports operating on their own with their own budget, and that will be, uh, TNT Sports with, um, with, uh, TNT True TV and and TBS as well.

And I know that.

You know, they, they missed out on the, uh, the NBA, but that basically lined their pocket with like a couple billion dollars that they, that they've been out, you know, uh, they, they, they're, they're a legitimate bidder for legitimate sports.

I mean, you're, you're going, you're going this fall, you're gonna be watching one of the, um, championship series in baseball on on TBS, uh, March Madness coming up next month.

You're gonna be seeing a ton of those games across the, the, the TNT sports channel.

So they still have a lot of big time.

They don't have the NFL.

They don't have the NBA, but they still have a lot of big-time sports that people watch, and they have those college football games from ESPN that they license to the playoff for the college football playoff, and they also have like some big 12 games.

They have, they, they have a sort of a mishmash, but if you're a fan of those teams, you're gonna, uh, tune into it, um.

It is, you know, I've said this before.

It , it is amazing.

I feel, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's me.

I always get the feeling like people completely forget that TBS has baseball until the playoffs start.

And you're like, oh yeah, they, oh, not, not only that, I, I didn't even mention the, the Stanley Cup, which they have every other year.

They, they have like a a bunch of really good high-quality sports that people, that, that people tune into.

So I guess the more interesting thing then is if Netflix purchased it because now this can tie in and lead us into the NFL.

Like Netflix, they don't want like a regular season.

They don't want rights to 100 games.

They want big events, correct?

That's, uh, that's, that's where they are right now in the year 2026, yes.

So like if Netflix bought.

Turner, I, I still say Turner, Warner Brothers Discovery.

All right, what happens with regular season NHL games?

Uh, there's, so if, if Netflix buys it, the, the, they're, they're gonna separate out the cable channels.

So it's, uh, the cable channels will operate on their own.

But the, and, and this is a great way to get into the, the NFL discussion because the NFL is about to take billions of dollars out of the market, and it's taking billions of dollars out of a market that is seeing cord cutting.

It's seeing the traditional line.

Or, uh, television companies, uh, there's been a slow slide, you know, they're not making nearly as much money as they were making 5 years ago, 10 years ago.

And so taking that money out, having somebody like Warner Brothers Discovery or TNT Sports that's still open for business and bidding on sports is what all of these, uh, leagues are, are dying to have just somebody that's interested in, in buying their sports rights because there's a real fear, more than a fear, uh, Lachlan Murdoch on the.

Quarterly earnings call that said that they want to renew the NFL and they're gonna reprioritize their, their set of sports rights, which, you know, if you're FIFA World Cup or if you're MLB or you're any of those other, uh, leagues that are on Fox, you're, you're, you're really worried about that.

Yeah, and I, I definitely want to get into all that.

I'm just thinking, uh, this wasn't like a plan question, but it's off the top of my head as we're discussing this.

How come we never hear about TNT as a player or TBS Turner as a player for NFL rights.

You know, TNT, uh, well, under David Levy when he was running, uh, they, they were always trying to get it, and they, they never got it.

Uh, ESPN, they had it at one point because it was the great Verne Lundquist, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was great, uh, and they shared it with ESPN, and then ESPN sort of bought him out and they were always sort of also rans and, uh.

And the NFL prioritizes reach and, uh, and cable.

Uh, we all, we all know what's happening with cord cutting, uh, and also, frankly, the price has gone up so much that I mean, if I were consulting TNT Sports, I'd say forget about the NFL and go after these other sports, which, which they've, uh, done pretty effectively.

Yeah, I met that old school.

It was, who, who it was Vern with, I think it was Pat Hayden on the old TNT.

Sunday nights.

That's how old I am.

I remember that.

Um, all right, so there's one, I think they had the first half of the season and ESPN took the second half of the season.

Yeah.

All right, so let me, let's get, let me just do this for the listeners who, who maybe are not as immersed in all this as us, just as a, as an overview.

Where, where it stands with the NFL is this.

Their current media rights deals expire.

In 2029, however, and, and they, they expire in 2033, actually 2033.

I'm sorry, why did I thought I saw 2029.

Well, 20029 is where they can exercise an out in their contracts in 2029.

I thought they had an out even before 2029.

Well, well, so what they're, what, what they've done is said like, yeah, I'm glad I asked you this before the overview.

Look at this.

I had it all wrong.

So they, they have it at 2029, uh, and they were like, well, we could wait until 2029, and then we'll, we'll have it out and just do an entirely new deal, or we can move that up to 2026.

Uh, and the networks, amazingly enough, I was surprised by this.

Like, yes, we want, we, we, we want to do this earlier than later because if we can get the NFL locked in with no out, basically, they're going to buy out the out.

If we can get them locked into 2033, 2034, then that looks so much better on our bottom line and we don't have to worry about the streamers coming in in 2029 and taking our lunch.

OK, this is amazing because I'm, now I'm even happier that I had you on.

Because I thought it was, the contract was up in 2029.

There was an early out in 2026.

So what you're telling me is the contract's not up till 2033, early opt-out 2029, but that was even able to get pushed up till 2026.

OK.

In, in, in terms of 2026, when is that happening this year, um.

Uh, we don't know yet .

Uh, they've already had informal talks, the NFL and some of the, the, the networks.

Uh, I've heard late summer, early fall is when they're gonna start to get serious.

Uh, and once they start to get serious, everybody kind of knows what's gonna happen.

So I, I don't expect this to be a year-long negotiation.

I expect it to be pretty quick once, once they actually formally exercise that out.

OK, so we got like, you know, probably 567 months before this gets heated.

So let me ask you this.

Well, let me start with someone.

Can you envision any scenario at all where CBS or Fox Lose Sunday afternoon packages.

Uh, no, uh, it , um, in fact, I'm, I'm, I'll, I'll answer your next couple of questions with this one.

I, my prediction on this is really boring, Jimmy.

It's, I, I expect everybody to maintain their packages because for, for this reason.

If NBC, let's use NBC and Sunday Night Football because most people point to that as being the most challenge.

Like if Amazon wants to, uh, uh, upgrade from Thursday night to Sunday night, like they, they, they could, they could get that and, and it's not a whole bunch of games at the same time.

But so let's say Amazon decides they want Sunday Night Football, and let's say the NFL decides, OK, we'll give you Sunday Night Football.

Then they have a lame duck Sunday Night Football broadcaster in NBC going into 2029, which is when that actually when the out actually is.

Uh, I, I think this is a way for broadcasters, they know they're gonna pay a ton more, uh, for, for, for these rights.

It's, it's just a way for them to make sure to keep Amazon out, to keep Google out, to keep Netflix out for as long as they possibly can for these major packages.

OK, so on the flip side of that though, you reported that you could see 5-game packages going to Amazon, Netflix, and YouTube.

Um, uh, well, Amazon still has Thursday Night Football.

What, what, what, what, what I said, uh, what I said was that the NFL wants to create, let's forget about the idea of, uh, increasing the NFL schedule to 18 games where it's gonna be really easy to, to get a new package.

They could, they, you, you said, you know, Netflix wants events.

Well, let's come up with some events.

There's the opening kickoff.

That's an, that's a big event.

OK, so let me stop you there.

Wouldn't that though piss NBC off that they're losing one of their biggest games of the season?

Yes, it, it would , but NBC needs the NFL and they need Sunday Night Football.

So like, you know, there's nothing they can do.

You can, yeah, you can, you can, it, it would anger NBC, but, uh, they , they, they, I could see that moving forward.

Um, uh, you also have the Christmas Day games.

You, you could invent, you know, a Columbus Day game, or you could invent, uh, you know, a Halloween game, or you could, you could do something in order to get Netflix interested.

You also have some international games, uh, uh, what, uh, that could interest Netflix.

They have 4 games that they're getting back from NFL Network as a part of this, uh, you know, Disney, taking control of NFL Network.

Uh, they have international games that they're starting to, to push out there.

So, there's an easy way to skim off, uh, 10 games where you have a 5 game package to Netflix, 5 game package to YouTube, and that fits in.

With what the NFL strategy with media has been forever, which is let's try to seed all these different, uh, networks, all these different media companies, and get them hooked on our programming, and they, they can't envision life without these, uh, you know, all, all, all the, all the viewers coming in to watch it.

All right, so then, let me follow up on that, but this.

So let's say they carve out all these packages and, you know, Halloween and like you said, all these packages and Netflix gets a handful of games and Amazon or YouTube, whatever.

How do you, how does in the NFL, well, two things on that.

You have CBS and Fox then with totally diminished schedules on Sunday afternoon.

And you also have the NFL having the bulls to charge $500 for Sunday Ticket and that's gonna get diminished.

Yeah, Sunday Ticket will get, would, would, would, would get hurt, but, uh, I, I, I would push, I would push back.

Let me just say one thing.

If Sunday Ticket's gonna get hurt, that's fine.

Lower the price, but the NFL would rather just go out of business than lower the price by $1.

They, I, I will push back on a little bit.

Like if they take a, if they take a game or two from a Sunday afternoon, which, which would, which would happen, you know, think about like the number of games that go to, you know, 5% of the, uh, of the country or 10% of the country, and, and it's a way to sort of take those games and put it on a, on a more national, um, or, or in, in the case of Netflix and YouTube, an international, uh, audience, and so.

But you're, what you're doing is you're really hurting the hardcore fan.

Because the hardcore fan, even if the game's going to 5% of the country, and whether they want that game just because they're a fantasy football nut or a degenerate gambler, they're paying the $500 for Sunday Ticket.

And then Sunday afternoon comes and that schedule just gets scaled down year by year by year.

That schedule gets scaled down more and more and more.

Yeah, and I think what the NFL would say is that, uh, we're not, we're, we're not, uh, disenfranchising the hardcore fan.

We're making it a little, we're making that high-priced Sunday.

Ticket, uh, package, a little less, uh, uh, um, uh, not, not as good as it used to be.

But for hardcore fans, now you get more national windows to, to, to watch, to watch the games that you, that, that you want to watch and you don't have to have, have one game competing against the next game, competing against the next game.

Uh, let me go backwards here a little bit.

So you, you , so you, you think that late, later this year when they renegotiate the deal, CBS and Fox will keep their.

Afternoon packages.

You do you see any, can you give any chance at all to Sunday, to NBC losing Sunday Night Football, or do you think that's pretty much a lock to remain there, if there's a, if there's a change, I think that would be the most likely change to happen, but I, I, I don't see that happening.

I, NBC wants to keep the NFL.

Uh, the NFL likes, uh, staying on NBC.

Remember, NBC built up Sunday Night Football like I, it went, when it got in in 20 2006.

And I think we're now on, what is it, you know, you probably know this as well as I do, 14th straight seasons of, uh, being the number one primetime show in, in television.

So, uh, you know, it, it would take a lot for the NFL to move that off of NBC, I think.

I, I don't see that happening.

That's, that always makes me laugh though.

Like 14th straight year of the most-watched primetime show, but the 4:25 game does better than Sunday Night Football.

I make sure to put primetime in there.

Yeah, exactly.

The 4:25 is still the.

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Do you think, if you had to predict, When they do these negotiations later this year.

Do you predict packages for Netflix?

Amazon and YouTube, all three, or could you see one being left out?

Are there too, are there too many there and they can't really possibly give enough games to all three of those?

Um, well, it, it depends on what you consider a package.

I mean, because right now, right now, Amazon has games, YouTube has games, and, and, uh, and Netflix has games.

Uh, so, so, uh, do, do I see packages for all three?

Yeah, I, I think that the NFL, the NFL.

The NFL, like everybody else, they see where everything is going and everything is going towards streaming and, and, and anything they can do to, to bring those streamers in, I think they'll be happy to do.

So yeah, I would, my, my prediction is, um, that everybody's gonna see what, whether you call it a package or not, they're gonna all have games moving forward, yeah.

So it sounds like just to boil it down, it's, you know, it sounds like your Sundays are gonna stay the same, will stay the same if you're an NFL fan and then everything else is basically up for grabs and will be, and I guess Monday night will stay the same.

Um, I did think it was interesting.

I read, it might have been you.

I apologize if it was you, if I'm not giving you the full full credit for it, but like the NFL, they already want to take playoff games back from ESPN after ESPN just did so well with everything.

I thought that was an interesting little, yeah, I, that, that wasn't me.

I think that was Austin Carb that did that from, from SBJ and, uh, that the, I, that.

To me is a big negotiating, uh, ploy.

Like, you know, they, they, they have, uh, NFL they have playoff games and they have a bunch of companies that want these playoff games and they can, they can get 100, probably more than $100 million for one playoff game.

So why would, why would you just, no, we'll just renew with ESPN.

No, I think that they'll put that on the market and try to get as much money as they can out of it.

That was gonna be my next question.

We've seen wild card games on streaming services.

Are we gonna see divisional round games and conference title games on streaming services?

Um, you, you know, I, uh, I appear to be in the minority with this.

I, I got into an argument on, on a pod with Marchand about this, that he, he, he sees the Super Bowl.

Coming on streaming sooner than not, uh, probably not within this, uh, um, he always complains that I put words into his mouth, but he, he, he, he, uh, he has said like, you know , that he wouldn't be surprised if after 2034, like Amazon sort of gets into the rotation there, which, uh, which could happen.

I, I do think that, uh, The NFL will go, go take some divisional, uh, playoff games at some point to, to streamers.

Um, the question is how much the traditional, uh, guys, uh, step up to, to try to keep them on, um, um, um, traditional linear TV.

But the champ championship games, I, I just find a hard time believing that they're gonna go, uh, to streaming with the championship or with Super Bowl because, again , they're negotiating this in 2026.

Broadcast is still the biggest by far.

Um, the NFL still prioritizes region.

It prioritizes, uh, uh, broadcast.

And also you have, uh, in DC, um, uh, you know, Congress, they, they are monitoring the, uh, the migration of these games off of, uh, broadcast television onto stream.

And it's a, it's a real political foot , uh, hot potato, uh, in, in DC.

So, I don't think that the NFL can do that without, without sort of making sure, sure it's OK in, in front of Congress because they have all these other, you know, antitrust, uh, clauses and stuff that they have to worry about.

And I just to put a button in this one.

I, I had said you expect Fox and CBS to keep their Sunday afternoon.

NBC might be slightly vulnerable, but they'll probably keep their package.

And what about ESPN and Monday Night Football?

Uh, well, uh, uh, of course, you, you know that, um, The NFL just took a 10% stake in in ESPN.

And so having taken that 10% stake just last year, to think that this year, somehow they won't come to an agreement, uh, I, I, I can't foresee, I can't see a future where that happens.

I think that the, the ESPN, uh, renewing, uh, Monday Night Football is, is pretty, it seems pretty certain to me.

All right, that was perfect because you, I was going to transition and now you just, Made it much easier for me to transition.

Let's talk about a little bit about ESPN and NFL Network.

Um, do you, let me start with this.

Do you have any idea when we're gonna start to see these, some changes?

Uh, no, I, I, I don't get a sense of that.

Uh, I, I'm actually gonna be, uh, you know, this weekend with the combine.

I think that'll be interesting to see, uh, uh, some of the crossover there.

But I, I, I, I'm, I'm actually happy to be on here because I, I, I'm gonna take over the role of the host for a second because you, you watch NFL Network a lot, a lot, certainly a lot, lot more than I do.

It's not the same NFL Network.

They, they gutted that the NFL gutted that network.

So any kind of like ESPNish changes that come to it, I think, other than the, uh, the, the, the morning show, Good Morning Football.

Uh, everything else seems to be, and Eisen's show, of course, as well.

Everything else seems to be, you know, uh, library product or old games or it, it, it, it, it looks to be a network that, that is, uh, uh, it really needs to have more, uh, more and better programming, right?

Well, that's what I'm very interested to see what ESPN does with it, um.

I'll listen, I mean, so as a, as a, as a, as a regular watcher, what are you hoping to see ESPN do with it?

Well, I, I am, well, I will say this in terms of being a regular watcher.

I watch Good Morning Football and that, that's really all I watch there and then, and then the games.

So, I, I've said this before.

What I would hope is, and I don't, I don't, I don't want anyone losing jobs.

So I, I don't want to attack it from that standpoint.

I do think it'll be interesting when this season starts in September.

That if, I mean, would ESPN keep the NFL Network Sunday pregame show hosted by Eisen, the same exact way that they've done it for all these years and keep their own, what is it called?

Countdown, their pregame show on Sunday mornings.

Like, uh, why would they have two of the same pregame shows going on at the same time on two networks they own?

That, so, my biggest curiosity is to see what they do with the pregame show on Sunday.

Um, I, I, I'm curious to see if they make any significant changes to Good Morning Football I, can I jump in here for a second?

Oh, so my, my, um, this is not based on, I haven't actually, actually, uh, covered this at all.

So I, this is based, based on, you know, who would have thought that they would have Monday Night Football and they would pay through the nose to get.

Uh, Aikman and Buck, uh, to do it.

And then, and then they would put the exact same game with Peyton Manning and Eli Manning and guests on ESPN 2.

I think that you'll, you'll end up seeing them do the same thing with the pregame because they're, they're able to sell ads around everything and you just take, take the, you take the number of people watching and you add them and all of a sudden like you, you can charge a premium in terms of ads.

So I would be really, really surprised if they, with the NFL Network, they, they messed with the pregame show too much.

Yeah.

Well, they, they messed a lot with Good Morning Football.

I mean, they, it, it's a cast of characters now, um.

A lot of people in and out of that show.

So now ESPN has all this talent.

You know, I don't, I don't think a show works when you don't know who's gonna be on.

There's hosts there one week, they're not there the next week.

Someone's coming in.

Like, I think consistency works.

So I, I'd be curious to see if ESPN tries to say to the NFL Network, well, they don't wouldn't say it to them.

If ESPN says to themselves, we now own Good Morning Football, which is a, A, a very important show .

I mean, that is the NFL morning show.

Like on a Monday morning, you're gonna be there on a Tues, you know, when during the season, it's, it's it.

People are there Uh, they have an opportunity to get a consistent cast going.

I would hope they would do that.

And then in terms of, and then the third thing when I think about NFL Network is just the games and the announcers.

They've had packages, you know, NFL Network has a bunch of international games over the years.

They use Eisen and Warner.

That's gonna be a major thing now with the NFL Network getting these games.

Um, well, how did it work the 4, so it was the 4 Monday night doubleheader games that went back to the NFL.

So they're gonna sell those.

So the NFL Network could end up with no games, correct?

Uh, no, the NFL Network, uh, has, I don't want to get too much in the weeds for your audience, but the, the deals that they have with cable operators and the DirecTV and Comcast, they have to have a set, a set number of, uh, of live.

NFL games.

I'm not sure exactly what that number is, but like whatever that is, you can bet that the NFL and ESPN will make sure that that's that close to the bare minimum that they can put on there, right?

So me as just a fan, I, my curiosity is who calls those games now that ESPN owns basically.

The talent for whoever is gonna call those games.

So that those would be my interests in the NFL Network.

Well, uh, uh, another thing that I look at is the, the way that ESPN handles, uh, SEC Network and the way it handles ACC Network, uh, the two networks that, that it runs, and it has.

It has, uh, hosts that are, are, uh, associated with each of those networks.

And so it would really surprise me if this just becomes ESPN 3 slash football.

Like I, I, I would imagine that it's gonna be an NFL Network and they're gonna have actual hosts.

And on-air personalities that that are strictly with NFL Network and there's gonna be very few top guys like Eisen that sort of go back and forth along the, uh, um, the, the different networks.

Well, see, that's interesting because I would wanna see, I, if I'm ESPN, I would want the people to go back and forth.

Um, well then, what's, uh, I mean, what's the difference between ESPN 2 and an NFL Network?

I mean, the NFL Network has to have some sort of identity, I would think, right?

Well, the identity is, it's all football.

All NFL football, I should say, whereas ESPN 2 has that, you know, they show everything.

But yeah, I, I, you know, I've seen it.

It's a very popular like thing to come and say like NFL Network.

It'll be like SEC, ACC, but this is the NFL.

It's a different animal.

I don't think you can make it exactly.

The same, but I don't know.

Um, I'm, my biggest curiosity is what happens with the talent.

Is Ian Rapoport gonna be on ESPN?

Is Schefter gonna be on NFL Network?

That, that, that's my biggest curiosity with all that.

Yeah.

And, and, and, uh, I, again, I know Marchand had, uh, Rapaport on his pod or whatever, how those two will work together in terms of, uh, like they're, they're bitter competitors, uh, that, that.

Out there and that, that'll be interesting to see.

And what makes it, I think , a little bit interesting to me too is at least, like, you know, we're in this business and maybe you feel differently, but for me, like, to me, there's been very, very little information and nuggets leaking out about how this is all gonna work and what ESPN is gonna do with the NFL Network.

So that sort of ups the intrigue for me at least.

You might, maybe you've heard a bunch of things behind the scenes, but for me, I, I feel like I've heard nothing about this.

Yeah, it's funny because it's, it's until you actually mention it, it's not a story that I've, that I've really been pursuing.

So I, I don't have a ton of knowledge on, on this other than seeing, uh, past history just because like I said, NFL Network already was gutted.

It's a sort of like a, a, you know, a, a, a, a gutted network that's coming in that ESPN is just gonna try to program like they, they do, you know, 5 other channels, 6 other channels.

All right, a couple of non-NFL things here before we wrap it up.

What's your, you know, the NBA.

Had new partners this year.

NBC got back in the business.

Now they're on Amazon.

No more TNT.

How do you, NBC that's been on network and we'll leave that alone.

How do you feel the NBA feels about their Amazon deal?

Do you think they're happy with it just because they're making this money ?

I, I ask because the sense I get is I haven't seen any buzz at all for NBA on Amazon.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm curious what you think about that.

Uh, I, I know that the the NBA has said that they're thrilled with uh, with, with, uh, their Amazon deal so far.

Um, I think that just the addition, it's hard to just isolate Amazon out.

I, I, I don't know if I agree with you about that.

There's been no buzz.

I'm, I'm a little bit more of an NBA fan and I like, I, I do find that there's, there is some buzz.

I, I do think that, uh, and Adam Silver has said this too, that the, uh, Uh, uh, is it production value?

I'm not sure, just the way that Amazon and NBC treat the games where they talk about the games, uh, they quote unquote, celebrate the games, uh, which seems to be a little bit of a shot at inside the NBA to me, uh, a little bit, but it's, uh, they, they enjoy that.

Uh, they think fans like that, and they, they think that there's some energy behind that.

And they think that it's caught on with with ESPN as well, and in terms of the way that they produce the games and they produce studio shows that that aren't inside the NBA.

Gotcha.

Yeah, I I guess it's more, I, I think we'll, I think we'll see sort of the, The Amazon NBA marriage really when the playoffs start is when it'll become, I think, a really big thing because now you're in New York, you didn't get jazzed over the, uh, in-season tournament.

I mean, the, the, the Knicks, they're raising a banner, right?

Well, that they're, they're not raising a banner.

I know that was a joke and that's not a, that's not an, that's not an Amazon thing.

That's an NBA thing, that stupid tournament, so.

I'm not gonna get, uh, get on Amazon.

Yeah, I do think, listen, there's no doubt that NBC.

Has done a great job with the NBA, but, you know, production-wise and all that stuff, um, and Amazon too.

I have nothing, it's just a matter of like, you know, regular season games on Amazon.

I was just wondering if everyone, I , I look, it's a big, it's a problem that, uh, even Adam Silver sort of acknowledged a little bit during the NBA All-Star where you, uh, the, the NBA regular season, 82 games, you have, uh , teams that are tanking, you have, you have players that are, you know, the load management is unique.

To the NBA, it seems, you know, players that are sort of gearing up for the playoffs.

And if you talk to Jimmy, any, any media executive, when they do these deals, when Amazon did the deal or NBC did the deal, all the money they're paying is for those playoffs because that's, that's when interest really comes in and that's when, that's when you'll really start to see the buzz and this is.

You know, it, it, it, it has a feel of like an 82 game like preseason almost that leads into the, uh, into the, the real season which is the playoffs, right?

All right, then let me end it with baseball, um.

Obviously, new situation this year, NBC and Peacock will have a bunch of games.

No more ESPN.

Well, ESPN will have regular season games.

They won't have Sunday Night Baseball.

They have their game during the week.

Um, Uh, it's just laughable what happened last week when people found out there was no more Sunday Night Baseball and like no one seemed to know and they got all offended that they were gonna be WNBA and it was just one of the dumbest things I've ever seen, so I don't even want to give it breath.

Where do we, so Fox, which has one of the championship Series and the World Series have had it, the World Series forever.

Um, I believe they have it through 2028, just two more, two more years.

And then those negotiations come up.

Would baseball sell out to a streamer and give them the World Series?

God, I find that so, you know, I, I'm about to say the same thing that I told you about the NFL.

I find that really hard to believe, the World Series.

However, baseball did decide that they were gonna take the, uh, one of their championship Series.

And give it to a, a, a cable channel, uh, and, and so they're, they're prime 22 series on cable because it's TBS and the other series is on FS1.

Actually FS1 has a bunch of those games too.

Uh, so could, could they do it with, uh, uh, with the, the World Series and streaming potentially, uh, could you see?

Uh, somebody like Netflix, like, imagine this, the Dodgers, you, you, you don't figure out a salary cap, that, the, the Dodgers are knocking on the door of the World Series for the next 10 years, and you have Shohei Otani.

All of a sudden, like, if you, if you buy the international rights in your Netflix, you know, would you pay for that and, and, and grow your subscriber base in Japan and, and then a bunch of, you know, Asian countries?

Is there a possibility of that to happen?

Yeah, I, um.

I just think, uh, my head's not in the sand.

Everything is going towards streaming.

The streaming, uh, people have, have, have, uh, already sort of, you know, planted their flag with sports.

I just don't feel like in 2026 or even 2028 when those rights come up, I just don't feel that that the the leagues will be prepared to get off of broadcast, which is still, uh, again, it's still the biggest, most powerful place that you can amass uh big audiences.

Uh, I, I'm skeptical about that, uh, about the World Series going to streaming, although I do acknowledge that that is a possibility.

If I, if I'm baseball, I'd rather my championship series be on Netflix than FS One.

Um, I, I, you could, yeah, I could certainly make a case for that, or, or even, uh, TBS and, and, uh, and Amazon Prime.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Would, let me end it with this.

Would Fox, having to spend so much money now to keep the NFL later this year when they do those renegotiations, could having to spend all that money in the NFL hurt Fox or prevent Fox from being able to spend what it would have to spend?

To renew their baseball deal and keep the World Series.

And so you just identified my story lineup for the next two years because, like I said earlier on this pod , Lachlan Murdoch said that they're gonna have to make hard decisions.

And the question I have is like, what, what do they have where they're gonna Make hard decisions.

Is, is it gonna be, you know, IndyCar?

Is it gonna be NASCAR?

Is it gonna be, uh, baseball?

Is it gonna be the Big 10 or it's gonna be the Big 12?

They have a, uh, Fox has a, a big set of rights out there.

Somebody's not gonna get it.

Is it, I, I, I know that Fox likes the World Series.

They like having the World Series in, in, uh, in October.

They like their relationship with baseball, which goes, it it it goes back to what is it, 1997, I think.

I mean, that's 30 years, uh, uh, just about.

Um, uh, so, so I, I believe that they want baseball still, but you identified like a question that's that nobody can answer yet, right?

All right.

Are you excited for the Orioles?

Oh, I can't wait.

We got the polar bear, Pete Alonso.

Yeah, we're spending more than the Yankees, I think, uh, for this offseason.

The Yankees are not the Yankees, and I, I don't know when people are gonna catch on to that, but those days are over.

Uh, if, uh, I, I, I have the feeling the Orioles are gonna win a lot of games 12 to 11 and they're gonna lose a lot of games 12 to 11, but it's gonna be a lot of fun watching those games.

Alonso will be very fun for you guys to watch there in, in that.

My, my son bought me a Pete Alonso Orioles jersey.

I should have worn it for this one.

He, uh, for that was my, uh, My Christmas gift from him.

Do you even, OK, so do you know the Orioles' first game?

Where do you, where will you find it on there?

Is it on the local cable?

Orioles, Orioles are still on Masson, so they, Masson still exists.

The Nationals, we don't know yet where, where you're gonna be able to watch that in DC.

But like I, I, I know for the Yankees opening nights on Netflix, which I just think is so bizarre, but what I mean, I'll watch it, but that again, that this is a complaint of every Yankee fan.

You gotta get Amazon Prime now you gotta get Netflix.

You gotta get cable, and yes, the prime, the Amazon Prime thing irritates me probably more than anything in sports media.

The Netflix thing, I don't mind.

It's a one-off.

It's opening night.

I mean, I don't know what it does for baseball that they're on Netflix on opening night, but The the the fact that the Yankees took 25 games off of free TV to put them on Amazon Prime.

I just You, you just can't be more greedy, including, including the Friday night games.

Uh, you just wanna come home on a Friday night and, and, and turn on the game, right?

Yeah, that's a, that's well, and the big, and the big issue, well, they moved that.

It's Wednesdays now.

It started with Fridays.

Now it's Wednesdays.

When it was Fridays too, the bigger issue would be, OK, it's Friday night.

You go out to dinner, maybe you're in a bar, you're in a restaurant, whatever.

You can't, can't watch the game.

It's ridiculous, but That's the Amazon thing I think is in like year 5 already now with the, with the, uh, they started on Wednesday, maybe it's year 4.

It was Wednesdays and now it's, no, it was Fridays and now it's Wednesdays and I don't know.

I just wait, are you, are you one of the ones that boycotts any of the games that that's on Amazon?

OK, yeah, that's it.

I know a few of you.

I'm not going through that trouble.

And then people say like watch things on your phone.

I don't watch anything on my phone except YouTube.

I don't, I can't.

I am not watching a baseball game on my phone.

Like I have a fifty-inch TV, but I'm supposed to sit in my house and watch something on my 1-inch phone.

Like it's just ridiculous, so.

And then , you know, and listen, baseball is not the NFL.

I mean, there's 162 games.

162 goddamn games.

So if I miss 20 games, I'll be fine.

You're not missing an NFL game.

They could put an NFL game on a streaming service at 3 o'clock in the morning where you have to pay 79.99. I'm gonna watch it.

It's just, that's the difference between why the NFL.

Rules this country and that's, that's the problem with that Apple MLB deal.

Like if the, the two times the Orioles are on that, I'm like, oh, these are two games.

I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna buy this just for those two games.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

All right, John, I appreciate you coming on as always and, uh, good stuff and good information here.

I know I learned a lot.

Hopefully the listeners did too, and, uh, we'll see you down the road anytime and his own podcast.

Thanks, John.